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Where have all the guns, ammo, and reloading supplies gone

3.9K views 33 replies 17 participants last post by  Clifffalling  
#1 ·

IMO:report says Hodgdon which has bought up most production companies,in the US is exporting instead of selling here...and what is preventign import of ammo, and replaodign supplies and guns now.Can't find the cheap import shotgun shells or NATOcountry produced guns or ammo or powders anywhere?
 
#2 ·
Haven't bothered clicking on or reading the article. Perhaps we have some exports but I would expect those would be less total than during the height of OIF and OEF circa 2007 when we had an active two-front war brewing with 150,000 deployed service members and extremely high training environments domestically.

According to Ammoland, in 2017 about 8 billion rounds of ammo were made in the USA in 2017.

Current shortages? I'm going to hazard a guess. Ten times the demand as there is production.
  • 50,000,000 new gun purchase background checks, which probably average at least 2 guns per check, in the last 15 months. That's probably 100 million guns purchased on 4473s, and most people buy ammo for a new gun.
  • Probably twice that transferred privately.
  • Some 8+ million brand new gun owners in the last year, all probably buying an average of 2 guns and 1000 rds per gun. 8,000,000 x 2,000 = a LOT of ammunition being purchased. Just a guess but around 16 BILLION rds of ammo in just those rough numbers from new gun owners.
  • People are also hoarding ammo due to concerns of limits and bans and restrictions.

The demand has been astronomical sans any alleged "exports." The demand is probably into a trillion rounds of ammo since 1/2020. Nobody has the capacity to crack that out fast...
 
#3 ·
Haven't bothered clicking on or reading the article. Perhaps we have some exports but I would expect those would be less total than during the height of OIF and OEF circa 2007 when we had an active two-front war brewing with 150,000 deployed service members and extremely high training environments domestically.

According to Ammoland, in 2017 about 8 billion rounds of ammo were made in the USA in 2017.

Current shortages? I'm going to hazard a guess. Ten times the demand as there is production.
  • 50,000,000 new gun purchase background checks, which probably average at least 2 guns per check, in the last 15 months. That's probably 100 million guns purchased on 4473s, and most people buy ammo for a new gun.
  • Probably twice that transferred privately.
  • Some 8+ million brand new gun owners in the last year, all probably buying an average of 2 guns and 1000 rds per gun. 8,000,000 x 2,000 = a LOT of ammunition being purchased. Just a guess but around 16 BILLION rds of ammo in just those rough numbers from new gun owners.
  • People are also hoarding ammo due to concerns of limits and bans and restrictions.

The demand has been astronomical sans any alleged "exports." The demand is probably into a trillion rounds of ammo since 1/2020. Nobody has the capacity to crack that out fast...
Have to agree with LC on this. Here's why we are seeing the inpact from it we are. Covid 19.

Even with record demand, the companies can pnly do so much, to counter the harder hit they are taking, because, to keep running, they have to follow the safe distance and handling guidelines, laid out on the federal and state levels. That means less employees, over more space, which will lower output, from the plants making the ammo, the distributors, taking in, and shipping out the ammo, to the retail locations. This adds a delay.

The same rules also apply to the companies making the cases, primers, and other components as well, affecting output by the manufacturers, as they are not getting the stuff in, at the rate they are sending it out, and may have to wait longer between runs, on specific calibers, until they have the minimum quantities for a batch. Used to happen quite often, when I worked in a grinding and cutoff wheel manufacturing plant. Order of 200 of X wheel, when we don't run a batch of less than 2,000 of them, we have 100 on the shelf, it's not worth firing up the line to make that other 100, until we have 1,500 ordered by a distributor.

Because, we have to pay the team that prints the labels, the supplier of the rings, the supplier of the paper, the in plant crew that makes the fiberglass weave reinforcer discs, the company making the grit, which all have minimum orders, we have to meet. And that's not even getting into internal costs, You have to pay the mix department, to mix, and feed the machine, the press operators, the electric for the machine, air and hydraulics, as well as the ovens, and the over coordinator, putting them in, and taking them out, the line workers taking them off the pins and plates, packagers, and shipping department, all on the inside of the plant, then your shipper, to send them to your distributors.

Hence, to keep costs reasonable, a 2,000 wheel minimum order, on the plant level. And that's not even counting the companies mining the abrasive ore, from the ground. Ammunition companies deal with the same thing, with most, if not all components, not made in house.

Now, I know what some will ask. If they have to have more room to work, why not use this as a chance to expand, and make more lines? To that, I ask, will you still, in two years, be looking to order 10,000 rounds at a time? Every three moths or so? How about your friends, will they?

Expanding production to meet short term, or long term demand, can cost millions, and spending even a few hundred thousand now, that's money that takes years, if not decades, to recoup. Expanding now, in the panic, could kill most companies, within 5 years, because most customers will continue to buy a box or two at a time, so you are also paying more employees, who will also end up without a job, even if the company survives, and sells of those additional assets, to keep from having to shut down. Sure, rampping up now, will show a little more profit now, but it is false economy. The only way it would have paid off, is if you started doing the growth about a year ago, and you already own the land and building outright, and could **** it down once demand returns to normal.

What will happen is this. Things will slow down, production will catch up, and we'll have a surplus again, drving prices back down. Same as it did with ARs, when Obama took office, and with standard capacity magazines, after the 94 AWB went away. Trust me, that's how it has gone, and how it will go.

Want to speed the process up, you and all your friends need to stop panic buying every round on the shelf, and get everyone you know to do the same. I have bought exactly 7 boxes of ammo since last March. I have passed them up, when buying a gun in a caliber I have, and except for 2 boxes, have only bought what I didn't already own, with a new purchase.

Here's how you prevent being dinged by the next panic. Even when you don't think you need to buy ammo, if you are somewhere that sells it, buy a box or two, every time you are in such a place. Get a few hundred or thousand deep on one caliber, switch to another, or buy it in mixed lots. This is the 5th panic I remember being in, between state and federal incidents, and you know what I've never done? Run out of ammo. And I buy some of it to donate to training classes, and youth shooting programs, annually.

No conspiracy Tin. Just above average demand, combined with a good thing, new shooters getting into the sport, and low production of components, due to the effects of the pandemic. All it is. This too shall pass.
 
#4 ·
Good points about businesses being unable to "ramp up" to meet demand. I had a conversation with a generally smart pro-gun neighbor last month, and he is under the delusion that investors can just dump capital into ammo-making factories to catch up with demand.

I explained that it's not that simple, particularly in this political climate.

First, Demand vs. Supply: In NORMAL times, think of the ramping up for events like war. World War II, for example, created massive demands and shortages for steel, rubber, lead, etc. The entire nation sacrificed to fund the war effort to make tanks, bombs, guns, bullets, jeeps, etc. And that was to field just a few million Soldiers going to war. By contrast, we have a nation of probably 100,000,000 gun owners all demanding guns and ammo... we may not be at "war" but we have massive economic demands to meet.

Next, investing capital. Unlike war, where Uncle Sam is paying the tab, here we have private or public companies all making wise economic decisions not just for tomorrow but for 10-20 years. Look at the beating several gun companies took between 2010-2020. Remington, Marlin, Colt, and others had massive financial problems. "Ramping up" for production doesn't always pay off and when it does, it might take decades. In the current anti-gun climate would YOU invest millions of dollars into a warehouse and machines and employees that might take 6 months to start producing, if the Biden admin can shut you down with an Executive Order or Congress can outlaw your product? It could be a total economic failure and collapse the company...

And actually, the high demand and slow production isn't harming these ammo makers... artificial scarcity often helps companies. It keeps demand high, drives up prices, and so forth. What incentive does Lamborghini have in making one for everyone? Scarcity, making a few, keeps the profits very very high... So rather than Ford producing a Taurus for everyone, they instead shift gears to keeping production at normal levels and soak up high profits due to high demand.
 
#5 ·
Here if you know the local gun store to go too you can get any caliber you want , as much as you want . For a high price compared to before. Guns too.
Powder, reloading rigs, bullets too. Twice or more the price but you can get em. Pistol primers are dicy to find though. Magnum ones are here and rifle primers too.

If your willing to pay the prices now.
 
#6 ·
People who normally had not kept a supply of ammo at home but purchased for hunting season, recreational shooting a few times a year, shotgun/rifle/pistol seasonal shooting in normal times were the civilian market. Usage was predictable - promo loads for dove season, rebates for hunting season, special runs of everything from tree stands to youth model firearms. Steady Freddie kept the industry stable.

Mail-order ammunition makes ammo available to most everyone with a click of the ol' mouse. Many time it's cheaper than driving somewhere to purchase and a whole lot more convenient. Companies doing mail-order sales are by the semi-load, not cases nor pallets. That could end with the stroke of a pen.

All ammo depends on supply of the basics - cases, powder, bullets, and primers. Reloaders are in competition with ammo manufacturers. Reloading markets are much smaller than the loaded ammunition market. Walk in to a wide variety of stores (farm supply, hardware, rural gas stations, etc.) and they'll have at least common calibers for sale. Seldom, if ever, will they stock anything related to reloading.

Imported ammo ? I have no clue as to what's happening there ...perhaps someone will share knowledge ?
 
#8 ·
According to Lord Fauci, companies have to have their people "socially distance" (is that ever an oxymoron) 6 ft., no, wait, it's now 3 ft., we don't need to wear masks, we need to wear masks, we need to wear two masks, we need to wear masks even though we've been vaccinated.......we don't know, especially from him.

Me thinks, he doesn't know. What has all this cost the country in money, productivity, lives, etc.? Answer: We don't know and Lord Fauci doesn't care. He has his little theater.....
 
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#11 ·
I go to Cabelas 2-3 times a week. They have been playing some stupid games lately. It opens at 9am and i go wait at 8am just to wait outside to hear them say we don't have any ammo at 9:01am. Sometimes the line is 50+ people long. But recently they have been screwing everyone over. They say "we don't have ammo" and then they will set it out at 2 or 3 in the afternoon. What the heck? what is that all about? Or another time me and the same 10 guys that all meet there at 8am every week were waiting and they said they were expecting an ammo truck at 10 but it wouldn't be put out till after lunch after it was unloaded. We waited in line just waiting them out till 930. The guys were saying to all the people passing by " these guys are wasting their time i am not sure why the hell they are still here if we told them its not going to be put out till this afternoon." We just let him talk and we all stood there and told them we weren't leaving. They brought out the ammo rack FULL of ammo at 9:30am. Interesting... thought it wasn't getting here till 10.. hmm. Getting extremely frustrating
 
#12 ·
Me, waiting in line at a Cabela's for anything isn't going to happen. I'll never understand why people didn't buy guns and ammo during a long record period of low ammo prices. That wasn't exactly a hidden phenomena.
 
#14 ·
Bingo. I also don't understand it. I've never seen modern guns and ammo so cheap as we did under most of Trump's FOUR YEARS. Here's a hint for the future. When stuff is almost free, stock up on it.... $400 ARs. FOUR HUNDRED DOLLARS. Twenty cents for 9mm, 40, 556, 762... TWENTY CENTS... Anybody with a job and/or good credit should have at least enough to keep shooting for the next decade without a bump in the road. These threads grousing about ammo shortages get really old...
 
#13 ·
The story at the OP link is so much trash.

Yep, people are paying absurd prices for ammunition and re-loading supplies. One muzzleloader guy paid $60 for 200 #11 primers that normally sell for $4.99 per 100.

Some gunowners never learn anything. This is the third ammunition buying panic in the past 30 years. After the first panic i refused to play the game. Still have a couple thousand large magnum rifle primers left over from the "Clinton is gonna outlaw re-loading" sub panic to the "Clinton is gonna take our guns" panic.

Recently did an inventory and down sized my stash.
 
#15 ·
The story at the OP link is so much trash.

Yep, people are paying absurd prices for ammunition and re-loading supplies. One muzzleloader guy paid $60 for 200 #11 primers that normally sell for $4.99 per 100.

Some gunowners never learn anything. This is the third ammunition buying panic in the past 30 years. After the first panic i refused to play the game. Still have a couple thousand large magnum rifle primers left over from the "Clinton is gonna outlaw re-loading" sub panic to the "Clinton is gonna take our guns" panic.

Recently did an inventory and down sized my stash.
Agreed except I'd say it's at least the 3rd or 4th Just since Obama's election in 2008. We had one when he was "elected" lasting from approx late 2008 to 2010, then the 2012 campaign period and his improbable 're-election' in 2012 that bled into Sandy Hook late 2012 lasting for about 2 years and ending around 2014. It tapered off until about early 2016 when it appeared Hillary would win so most of 2016 we saw more shortages due to panics.

It was a roller coaster, big spikes and deep valleys. But there were big valleys even under O-dimwit. I scored some excellent deals especially in 2011-2012 pre-election, then again between 2014-2015.
But it's almost like gun owners LIKE buying at the peaks and then stop buying when prices subside, or buying high and selling low...

And then there were simply amazing prices under Trump. If you didn't buy during 2017-2019 you were foolish. Heck there were deals even into early 2020.
 
#33 ·
I warned many many people to buy during the salad days, I took care of myself, and when people ask now, sorry, I cannot help you. My son's AR cost me less than $400 back during the salad days...probably could get a grand for it now, but of course he is very happy with it. Until his next boat ride.
Speaking of the double whammy of the 9th ruling there is no right to carry openly, and the harris...I mean biden administration open threat to ban and confiscate so-called "assault rifles" will drive the market even more in to a frenzy, if it is at all possible.
 
#34 ·
I warned many many people to buy during the salad days, I took care of myself, and when people ask now, sorry, I cannot help you. My son's AR cost me less than $400 back during the salad days...probably could get a grand for it now, but of course he is very happy with it. Until his next boat ride.
Speaking of the double whammy of the 9th ruling there is no right to carry openly, and the harris...I mean biden administration open threat to ban and confiscate so-called "assault rifles" will drive the market even more in to a frenzy, if it is at all possible.
I should have bought complete rifles, i just invested in stripped lowers and lpks... seemed like more bang for my buck at the time... que sera, sera.