[JimRau]

LOL! That explains a LOT! After all, that was leaded gas, given the year Tet happened.

(J\K Jim.)

Hey Smart A#$, I did not eat or drink it I only 'smelled' it and lead bromide does not evaporate. But I did 'inhale' a lot of NO2 when flying through some very recent 'ark light' areas!

 

[Mercator]

Speer LE Duty 40 cal 165 gr. 1150 fps. 460 ft-lbs. Hornady 1200 fps. All common hollow points. I’ve shot them. They hit hard and kick hard.

To the aliens who kidnapped Rau and are using his account. We know who you are. Drop him from you damn saucer or face the consequences.

 

[JimRau]

Speer LE Duty 40 cal 165 gr. 1150 fps. 460 ft-lbs. Hornady 1200 fps. All common hollow points. I’ve shot them. They hit hard and kick hard.

To the aliens who kidnapped Rau and are using his account. We know who you are. Drop him from you damn saucer or face the consequences.

So you have actually chronographed them!!! I think not! I will stand on what I said earlier, and not personally attack you!

 

[SSGN_Doc]

Some bullets seem to perform better in certain velocity ranges. If pushed too fast, they may expand too early or fragment and under penetrate. If pushed too slow, they may fail to expand and create a sufficient wound cavity.

I know many folks poo-poo gelatin tests, stating that we are not going to get attacked by jello. But it at least provides a repeatable test media to compare the performance of different loads under controlled circumstance. It can point out consistency or inconsistency of performance, and that is not a bad place to start.

I won’t discount the 147gr bullets for 9mm just based on weight. If they can get reliable function, penetration and expansion, they are worth considering.

This site has some decent data. Not all inclusive or a “be-all, end-all” but a decent resource. The tables at the lower portion of the page are good for comparison, and their explanation of their methods are pretty decent.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

 

[Mercator]

So you have actually choreographed them!!! I think not! I will stand on what I said earlier, and not personally attack you!

It’s chronographed, James, not choreographed. I didn’t, the manufacturers did of course. You are a hard case indeed.

 

[SSGN_Doc]

The issue with factory chronograph tests, is that they may each use different test barrels. It is good data for comparing different loads from the same manufacturer, but can be troublesome when comparing loads between manufacturers. Throw in lot by lot variations as well, and it becomes less useful. It is a starting place though.

 

[MisterMills]

I was just on a S&W forum and wouldn't you know it, this very topic came up there.
So anyway an ex-cop reported his views, which were, that he trained with Federal 9BPLE +P+, and the gun was fine. He shot a S&W M669.

https://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/s-w-semi-auto-pistols-forum/199333-plus-p-ammo-2.html

 

[SSGN_Doc]

I find a few interesting points in the Lucky gunner tables. If you look at the velocity differences in 9mm standard and +P from the same manufacturer, you don’t see vast velocity differences. Many times only a 50 FPS increase. However the projectiles seem to act very differently in some cases. Like Hornady Critical Duty 135 gr. The standard velocity got more over penetration and significantly less expansion than the +P load, which clocked about 65 FPS faster. Does this mean going to a compact pistol will drop that projectile out of its best performance envelope?

Federal HST 124gr in standard and +P only show a 33 FPS average velocity increase. The average penetration was the same, but the deviation in performance from round to round was worse for the +P, while the average expansion was slightly better in favor of the +P.

Just an observation from a single source of data.

 

[JimRau]

It’s chronographed, James, not choreographed. I didn’t, the manufacturers did of course. You are a hard case indeed.

Blame that on spell check, but I should know to check it closer. thanks.

 

[Mercator]

If you are going to fire hot loads, I would suggest getting a tough gun, like the Ruger P94.
View attachment 208160
I am showing my age, when I use that gun as my example. The new polymer Rugers may be even tougher than this one is, I don't know.

Looks badass by the way, good shape.

 

[Maineiak]

Not all +P ammo is created equal, and some of it is no more powerful than standard pressure ammo. Anyone who thinks a 9mm is as powerful as a 357 is misinformed, sure if you take the weakest 357 load you can find, and compare it to a +P+ 9mm, you can get close. Anyone who thinks a 9mm is more powerful than a 40cal is also misinformed.

 

[locutus]

I use +P+ in all of my service grade handguns, Glock, SIG, Beretta, CZ etc.

MY practice handloads are loaded to duplicate my factory +P+.

There is no SAAMI standard, but according to industry reps I talked to at SHOT show, there is an INDUSTRY standard of 42K.


This is well below the proof pressure of 45.7 K used by NATO.

 

[microadventure]

+P is a defined standard

+P+ is what Ralph and Sam whupped together in the workroom behind the CBD store

 

[locutus]

+P is a defined standard

+P+ is what Ralph and Sam whupped together in the workroom behind the CBD store

Nope!

+P+ was developed by Winchester for the Illinois State Police. made to their specs, and still one of the very best loads available.

Many old-timers still call it the "ISP" load.

Lotsa "Street Cred" with experienced LE folks.

 

[JimRau]

Not all +P ammo is created equal, and some of it is no more powerful than standard pressure ammo. Anyone who thinks a 9mm is as powerful as a 357 is misinformed, sure if you take the weakest 357 load you can find, and compare it to a +P+ 9mm, you can get close. Anyone who thinks a 9mm is more powerful than a 40cal is also misinformed.

POWERFUL, LOL!!! What does that have to with stopping the fight??? Numbers are very misleading and have little to nothing to do with 'real life' performance of the ammo where the 'metal meets the meat'. It is MUCH more complicated than that.

 

[Maineiak]

POWERFUL, LOL!!! What does that have to with stopping the fight???

Well, if you increase velocity you will increase the energy, which makes it more powerful. More power will increase penetration and cause more damage, so it stands to reason it could stop the fight faster. You go out and shoot a deer with a 9mm pistol, and then shoot one with a 357 and see which one runs further and takes longer to die.

 

[Les Moore]

Just get a larger caliber, and, really, seek counseling ! Word to your crickets under the porch, HOW did you get so cheap ?

22LR +P+ is equal to 32 caliber, hweed, hweed, hweed !

 

[JimRau]

Well, if you increase velocity you will increase the energy, which makes it more powerful. More power will increase penetration and cause more damage, so it stands to reason it could stop the fight faster. You go out and shoot a deer with a 9mm pistol, and then shoot one with a 357 and see which one runs further and takes longer to die.

That depends on the bullet. Like I said it is more complicated than that. Why would I shoot a deer with a 9 when I have several GOOD rifles??? I will keep the 9 for SD.

 

[Les Moore]

You know, so many folks are so busy looking for something more, that they just don't stop to appreciate what they have. Regular 9mm, 115 grain ammo is very efficient. Decent 9mm defense or safety ammo is almost formidable. The reason it's been so widely adopted, and is still around, after well over a century, is it's a near perfect compromise in size, power and effectiveness.

Nobody ever wants to admit they did this, but I can't help wondering how many folks, reaching for that +P+ brass ring, ruined their gun in the process.

9mm simply isn't equal to larger calibers. It's not made for hunting, or defense against bears. All these comparisons to other calibers always have a handicap caveat for the stronger round.

Case in point: I use .357, with 180 grain HPs for SD. There isn't a 9mm made, short of some jerry rigged, reloader's nightmare, which will come close to it in real life performance. Nobody I know of is using 125 grain bullets in their .357. So it's a flawed test, and a poor example of parity. Now those 180 grain .357s are standard rounds, and place no strain on the gun, nor are they rated to a higher pressure than normal rounds for the caliber.

 

[SSGN_Doc]

Well, if you increase velocity you will increase the energy, which makes it more powerful. More power will increase penetration and cause more damage, so it stands to reason it could stop the fight faster. You go out and shoot a deer with a 9mm pistol, and then shoot one with a 357 and see which one runs further and takes longer to die.

As others pointed out, it gets more complicated than that. The metallurgy of current projectiles, along with, how jackets are tapered, how pre-scored jackets are cut, jacket bonding, etc, are all done to get projectiles to achieve reliable expansion and penetration levels within a certain velocity range.

Firing a 115 grain 9mm bullet at 1000-1100 FPS may get the bullet to expand to maximum expansion range without fragmenting, in order to still hit ideal penetration of 12-18” in calibrated gel (I know, “Bad guys aren’t made of gel. However, this medium allows repeatable testing for comparison of bullet performance to evaluate design.)

Drive that same bullet to 1200-1300 FPS and it will indeed deliver more energy. This may come at the expense of early, violent expansion or even fragmentation. This can reduce penetration, and prevent a projectile from reliably getting to vital organs.

Other bullets may have a broader velocity threshold. A 124 or 147 gr may have enough residual weight, projectile length (which contributes to sectional density and increases penetration capability) to still hit required penetration depths.

FBI data collected for decades tends to point to that penetration depth range as being one of the more critical factors in getting more rapid stops from increased bleeding. Reliability and shot placement are still most important.

For me, I’ll take standard pressure loads that I can hit well with and with a round that has a record of hitting ideal penetration depths, and reliable expansion.

124 and 147gr Federal HST, or Speer Gold Dots are what I try to keep stocked up on for carry.

My carry pistols tend to have barrel lengths that don’t tend to take advantage of +P loads anyway.