[SGWGunsmith]

The use of the 'testing' methods you listed above can only be used to 'compare' various bullets/loads not to say just how they will work in a real world application, but we have to start somewhere!

Yah! That's like what I posted: "but pumpkins have no bones, so I gotta find some other method that's comparable. Until that time I'm gonna settle for what the exit hole looks like on Mr. Jack-o-lantern."

I can't help but wonder why some find that so hard to comprehend? But, for those in need. I'm going to test some of the 9mm rounds I want to use on pumpkins, squash and other non-two legged vegetables, that I can get cheap this time of year.
But still, if there are ANY human "vegetable volunteers" who'd like to assist, you're more than welcome to stop by.

 

[JimRau]

Some of my best 'testing' came many years ago, when due to a power outage, a friend of mine had a deep freeze full of meat that thawed. It was a lot of fun, but back then I did not have the experience I now have (to be more 'scientific') nor the selection of ammo we now have.

 

[JimRau]

Yah! That's like what I posted: "but pumpkins have no bones, so I gotta find some other method that's comparable. Until that time I'm gonna settle for what the exit hole looks like on Mr. Jack-o-lantern."

I can't help but wonder why some find that so hard to comprehend? But, for those in need. I'm going to test some of the 9mm rounds I want to use on pumpkins, squash and other non-two legged vegetables, that I can get cheap this time of year.
But still, if there are ANY human "vegetable volunteers" who'd like to assist, you're more than welcome to stop by.

If you fill the veggies with water that would help, right???

 

[primer1]

Hmmm, pumkins filled with bbq rib bones, then topped off with Jell-O. A *******'s wet dream expansion test. [emoji3]

 

[TheDreadnought]

Not true. The 40 is not a cure, it was a solution to a non problem. The '45' worshipers said 'bigger, heaver, slower', and the '9' worshipers said 'smaller, lighter, and faster' so the 10 mm was born, 'somewhat faster, somewhat heavier, and somewhat bigger'. BUT it proved to be to much of a 'good thing' for most so a compromise was reached, the 40 S&W. In the 'real world' the longer and wider the wound cavity the bullet makes the better it is at stopping the fight PERIOD! The 1/10 of an inch between the 45 and the 35 (9mm) and the 1/20 of an inch between the 40 and the 45 and 9 are not significant enough to matter at all. BUT the ability to EXPAND, RETAIN WEIGHT, AND PENETRATE are what make or break this ability to stop the fight. For MANY years the 357 mag with a 125 gr JHP at 1200 to 1400 fps has proven beyond any shadow of a doubt in actual REAL world shootings to be the load that all other are compared to. Enter a 127 gr 355 bullet that has a MV of 1285 fps (actually measured out of several guns) that expands reliably and retains its weight and penetrates deeply and you have as close to the 357 mag you can get in a semi-auto. The 357 Sig is another option as well. In the real world ALL of the best modern 9, 40, and 45 self defense loads are VERY GOOD at stopping the fight. Nuff said.

All of which has nothing to do with the pointlessness of +P ammo.

Standard pressure 9mm will do the job just fine.

But, as I said, if he FEELS like he needs more, he should step up in caliber, rather than just adding Recoil to the same round.

As far as the effectiveness of .40, it’s a better penetrator and better expander than 9mm. The only two things that matter in a pistol round. It’s not the only one with those qualities, but it’s a good improvement.

But the effectiveness of .40 or any other caliber is a different thread.

 

[microadventure]

this doesn't have anything to do with anything, but...

we used ballistic gel on my last job. it smells like decomposing flesh. imagine that on a 100 degree + New Mexico day

when the Brits worked with us, they mixed cinnamon into their ballistic gel. it still stinks, but it's a kinder, gentler stink

coroners make Vicks Vapo Rub mustaches when they encounter decomp. this explains that weird scene in Silence of the lambs.

if you do ballistic gel, these factoids may help a little

 

[JimRau]

All of which has nothing to do with the pointlessness of +P ammo.

Standard pressure 9mm will do the job just fine.

But, as I said, if he FEELS like he needs more, he should step up in caliber, rather than just adding Recoil to the same round.

As far as the effectiveness of .40, it’s a better penetrator and better expander than 9mm. The only two things that matter in a pistol round. It’s not the only one with those qualities, but it’s a good improvement.

But the effectiveness of .40 or any other caliber is a different thread.

Not true! There so VERY LITTLE difference in the BEST 9 and BEST 40 round in performance that if you had one it would be silly to sell it and buy the other. The wound cavity (expansion and penetration) are so similar that the only real advantage to the 9 over the 40 is higher capacity, less FELT recoil (and less expensive ammo). I have both and the 9 +p+ ammo in my 9's have less FELT recoil than any of the 40's. And the 9 will perform MUCH better than the 40 or 45 when the bbl lengths get below the 4 inch mark. Just a fact. And when you say SP 9 will do the job 'just fine', I guess it depends on what you mean by 'just fine'.

 

[JimRau]

this doesn't have anything to do with anything, but...

we used ballistic gel on my last job. it smells like decomposing flesh. imagine that on a 100 degree + New Mexico day

when the Brits worked with us, they mixed cinnamon into their ballistic gel. it still stinks, but it's a kinder, gentler stink

coroners make Vicks Vapo Rub mustaches when they encounter decomp. this explains that weird scene in Silence of the lambs.

if you do ballistic gel, these factoids may help a little

When we had to 'bury the dead' in some of the mass graves after Tet we would put a rag over our mouth and nose and put a small amount of gasoline on it to cover the smell and keep the flies out of our mouths.

 

[TheDreadnought]

Not true! There so VERY LITTLE difference in the BEST 9 and BEST 40 round in performance ..... And the 9 will perform MUCH better than the 40 or 45 when the bbl lengths get below the 4 inch mark. Just a fact. And when you say SP 9 will do the job 'just fine', I guess it depends on what you mean by 'just fine'.

Absolutely false. Fake news.

With a short (3.5”) barrel the best 9mm loads are 124 or 147 HST +P.

Even with a shorter (3.42”) barrel, several .40 rounds beat the best of the 9mm rounds.

Now THAT is just a fact.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re just uninformed.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

Look, 9mm is just fine as a defensive load. But to say it outperforms .40 is just flat out wrong.

The only question is whether the extra performance is “worth it” to you, or not.

 

[Missouribound]

"Gasoline octane is measured by performing a test in a standardized engine. "High test" gas means gas that, when tested, proved to have a high octane rating. ... So, "high-test" gasoline means high-octane gasoline."

Wow...you guys must be young.
Back in the day, my day, you had two types of gas...regular and ethel. (sp)
No such thing as unleaded, ethanol or biofuel.
The ethel would be high test.

 

[Ingramite]

Wow...you guys must be young.
Back in the day, my day, you had two types of gas...regular and ethel. (sp)
No such thing as unleaded, ethanol or biofuel.
The ethel would be high test.

Like Fred and Ethyl?
My Uncle Maurice was a Brilliant Bronze dealer.

 

[JimRau]

Absolutely false. Fake news.

With a short (3.5”) barrel the best 9mm loads are 124 or 147 HST +P.

Even with a shorter (3.42”) barrel, several .40 rounds beat the best of the 9mm rounds.

Now THAT is just a fact.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re just uninformed.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

Look, 9mm is just fine as a defensive load. But to say it outperforms .40 is just flat out wrong.

The only question is whether the extra performance is “worth it” to you, or not.

Absolutely true, as I have tested then MYSELF! Part of your problem is you are talking about a 147 gr load for a 9, which is the absolute wrong load for a 9, as they were NEVER intended for that heavy of a bullet. Nuff said. You have a nice day.

 

[Les Moore]

Another vote for "just go to a larger caliber, if you want more power". Those +P+s aren't doing your slide, frame, and extractor any favors.

Combine that with their insane cost, and it seems like you are going out of your way to borrow trouble.

 

[MisterMills]

If you are going to fire hot loads, I would suggest getting a tough gun, like the Ruger P94.

I am showing my age, when I use that gun as my example. The new polymer Rugers may be even tougher than this one is, I don't know.

 

[Mercator]

Who believes 9mm almost equals 40S&W: no. Overlaps partially. You get a handicap shooting bowling pins with a 9 but not with 40 cal —you’ll be paired with the 45’s. Most 40’s hit harder than 9mm.

Added. On +P+. Truth is nobody knows which gun will last how long on +P+ before it cracks or worse. The gun makers are not interested. So it’s every owners judgement, nothing really to argue about.

 

[JimRau]

Who believes 9mm almost equals 40S&W: no. Overlaps partially. You get a handicap shooting bowling pins with a 9 but not with 40 cal —you’ll be paired with the 45’s. Most 40’s hit harder than 9mm.

Added. On +P+. Truth is nobody knows which gun will last how long on +P+ before it cracks or worse. The gun makers are not interested. So it’s every owners judgement, nothing really to argue about.

Bowling pins are not people, AKA: apples and oranges. If you understand physics you will know the difference between 'energy' and 'momentum'! Momentum is why the heavy, slow bullets are better at 'moving' the pins which has NOTHING to with how they will effect a human target.
+p+ and +p ammo was not intended to be used A LOT. It was intended to be used to 'stop the fight', so unless you are going to be stopping a lot of fights it will not ware your gun out prematurely. And I know, from actual shootings, that it WORKS AT STOPPING THE FIGHTS!

 

[kfox75]

Makes sense. I've brought this up before, 9mm ammunition has come a long, long way from when it was first used in German pistols. I, personally like to test what I see that's NEW on the shelf before I jump in with both feet. I don't reload 9mm, only .40 and up.
My first priority with 9mm is 100% function in my only 9mm carry pistol. Next would be bullet weight and design. Only drawback is, I find no volunteers willing to allow bullet expansion testing on their carcass, which is understandable.
Shooting phone books, wet stacks of JUGS magazines, or newspaper doesn't do much in my mind. I have done/tried 9mm bullet expansion testing using pumpkins of human torso size diameter, but pumpkins have no bones, so I gotta find some other method that's comparable. Until that time I'm gonna settle for what the exit hole looks like on Mr. Jack-o-lantern.

Something worth a shot. Pork chops for the pectorals, pork ribs for the ribs, oranges (Bag) or a watermelon for the lung tissue, with denim or leather wrapped around it. AKA, Paul Harrell's "Meat target" analog for humans. Add leather for animals. He also adds layers of fleece as a stop to the target.

i started testing new SD and hunting rounds with that set up after running across it in a few of his videos.

 

[kfox75]

we would put a rag over our mouth and nose and put a small amount of gasoline on it to cover the smell

LOL! That explains a LOT! After all, that was leaded gas, given the year Tet happened.

(J\K Jim.)

 

[Mercator]

Bowling pins are not people, AKA: apples and oranges. If you understand physics you will know the difference between 'energy' and 'momentum'! Momentum is why the heavy, slow bullets are better at 'moving' the pins which has NOTHING to with how they will effect a human target.
+p+ and +p ammo was not intended to be used A LOT. It was intended to be used to 'stop the fight', so unless you are going to be stopping a lot of fights it will not ware your gun out prematurely. And I know, from actual shootings, that it WORKS AT STOPPING THE FIGHTS!

40 cal bullets are not slow, they are as fast or faster than 9mm. And Jim, knock it off, you're no scientist for heavens sake.

 

[JimRau]

40 cal bullets are not slow, they are as fast or faster than 9mm. And Jim, knock it off, you're no scientist for heavens sake.

You must live in a different world than the rest of us if your 40's are as fast, OR FASTER, than the 9's.
I have actually clocked my carry ammo, 127 gr Win +p+, out of three different guns and they averages 1285 fps. (357 mag ballistics) The 127 gr is a heavy weight bullet for the 9 (147 gr don't count as they are WAY to heavy for the 9) and even the lightest 40's, 135 gr, can't even come close to that. You don't have to be a scientist to read the numbers! The 155 gr, light per caliber bullet, 40's are about the same MV as the standard 115 gr 9's. Very few of the 165-180 gr 40's even break 1000 fps. Just read the numbers, they don't lie.