Oh if you don't know, this Is what it looked like when he gave it to me.

 

What you did is a very big NO NO without a $200 tax stamp. You now have a pistol with a forward grip,and that's against the law without a tax stamp for the forward grip.
If you leave the buttstock attached to it,then it's legal,but it's illegal with a pistol grip on the rear.

 

What you did is a very big NO NO without a $200 tax stamp. You now have a pistol with a forward grip,and that's against the law without a tax stamp for the forward grip.
If you leave the buttstock attached to it,then it's legal,but it's illegal with a pistol grip on the rear.

Even with the 18+ inch barrel?

 

and if you charged for it and without an FFL to gunsmith is a big no-no as well IIRC.

 

Even with the 18+ inch barrel?

I don't think barrel length has anything to do with it. I was looking into the laws on this subject a while back.I was wanting to put a forward grip on my PLR-16 pistol,and after figuring out it took a tax stamp,I didn't figure it was worth $200 for adding on that accessory.

 

and if you charged for it and without an FFL to gunsmith is a big no-no as well IIRC.

Since all he did was a cosmetic change,he shouldn't need a FFL,but if he's actually working on the firearm,he probably needs to have one.

 

Since all he did was a cosmetic change,he shouldn't need a FFL,but if he's actually working on the firearm,he probably needs to have one.

not 100% sure, but what i understood was that anything done to a firearm withing your possession for profit was considered gunsmithing and required an FFL to conduct such business.

that's reason anytime i ever worked on anyone's firearms, i never charged for the work. mostly refinishing stocks or mounting scopes and sighting them in for friends and family.

 

I don't think barrel length has anything to do with it. I was looking into the laws on this subject a while back.I was wanting to put a forward grip on my PLR-16 pistol,and after figuring out it took a tax stamp,I didn't figure it was worth $200 for adding on that accessory.

Franklin armory sells an AR-15 with an 11.5" barrel and vertical foregrip. They claim it is not a pistol, rifle, or AOW. If they can do it, you can do it.
http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html

 

So what your saying is if I have a Remington 870 and I want to buy a gouge tammer postal grip for 20$ I need a 200$ tax stamp?

 

So what your saying is if I have a Remington 870 and I want to buy a gouge tammer postal grip for 20$ I need a 200$ tax stamp?

*Houge tamer pistol grip

 

Hint, if you have a firearm for more than 24 hours, it should accounted for in books.

If you are making money (even as a hobby), you are engaged in business and require a tax id and FFL.

 

Franklin armory sells an AR-15 with an 11.5" barrel and vertical foregrip. They claim it is not a pistol, rifle, or AOW. If they can do it, you can do it.
http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26.html

That sir is a pistol there is no stock, and if it had a stock then it would be a sbr and would need the tax stamp.

 

So what your saying is if I have a Remington 870 and I want to buy a gouge tammer postal grip for 20$ I need a 200$ tax stamp?

Shotguns require a 18" barrel plus over length of 26" if you get the houge tamer pistol grip and the over all length is grater then 26" you are legal. You should be ok with the 18" barrel.

 

it looks great... however i am not sure what it woukld be considered legally. IHMO, you should be careful and research your local state, and federal laws

 

Someone ask a lawyer. I would, but do not live in the states. Never seen a gun like that though. Interesting.

 

So what your saying is if I have a Remington 870 and I want to buy a gouge tammer postal grip for 20$ I need a 200$ tax stamp?

No, shotguns fall under different rules than firearms with rifled barrels.

If you don't know the ATF rules, and don't have a gunsmithing liscense, you really need to be cautious about what you create.

A Handgun with a forward pistol grip and no stock is classified as an AOW (Any other Weapon). It requires ATF application, and registration and a tax stamp ($25 for AOW if I remember correctly).

A shotgun with a pistol grip needs to meet overall length requirements to be classified as a shotgun still, otherewise it would be a short barreled shotgun (SBS) which requires ATF application, $200 tax stamp, etc.

to further complicate things, each state could be different in what they allow with regard to ownership of SBS, SBR, AOW, full auto and supressed class firearms.

I would undo what you did to the firearm, and remove pictures. If you charged any money, give it back, because the government wants tax money for FFL related work for a profit.

This is not meant to be means spirited, but to protect you and others from future trouble.

If you like doing this kind of work, get in touch with the BATFE and see what it takes to get a liscense and keep things above board.

 

That sir is a pistol there is no stock, and if it had a stock then it would be a sbr and would need the tax stamp.

I would call it a pistol as well. But a vertical foregrip on a pistol creates a AOW. I was just surprised the BATFE ruled that this particular firearm was not considered an AOW. That ruling set a precedence.

 

but we have to look at what he started with and then ended up with. with a buttstock on the Circuit Judge and a 18.5" barrel that is most likely rifled. now the Judge pistol gets around the legalities by rifling the barrel and classifing it as a postol rather than a shotgun. the Judge with such a short barrel, if it wasn't rifled it would be classified as a SBS. this is from Rossi's website as to the classification of the Circuit Judge.

WARNING
1. The Rossi .45/.410 Circuit Judge is sold in North America only as a rifle.
2. No smooth bore versions of the Rossi .45/.410 Circuit Judge are imported or sold in North America.
3. Conversion of the Rossi .45/.410 Circuit Judge Rifle to a Smooth Bore Shotgun is impossible because there are
no parts available in the United States.
4. Due to the complexity of the firearm any conversion from its original configuration would have to be under the
supervision of a highly competent gunsmith.
5. Any changes made to any Rossi Firearm by anyone other than BrazTech LC, voids the warranty, and may prove
to be dangerous including serious injury or death.
6. Please note that the Rossi 28 Gauge Shotgun is sold as a smooth bore shotgun only. It may be illegal to sell in
various states or jurisdictions since it is a revolving cylinder shotgun – and is not rifled as is the Rossi .45/.410
Rifle.

 

Sharpshooter - this is known as a case of "Just because you can, maybe you shouldn't."

 

Sharpshooter - this is known as a case of "Just because you can, maybe you shouldn't."

i have to agree with this 100%. without researching gun laws beforehand, and knowing exactly, and i mean exactly what's legal and what's not can land you into big trouble quickly. and good intentions won't mean diddly squat to the ATF. they have no sense of humor when it comes to infractions of their laws.

beings as you're only 15, might i suggest you learn a little more before tackling projects that could possibly get you into legal trouble. just suggestion.

 

You don't want to camp out in a federal pen until you are 35, right?

 

I would call it a pistol as well. But a vertical foregrip on a pistol creates a AOW. I was just surprised the BATFE ruled that this particular firearm was not considered an AOW. That ruling set a precedence.

It is removeable.

 

working my way up

It is removeable.

I have some letters from the ATF(they like those letters) that indicate that if the total length is 26.5 or more you can put a vertical fore grip on it removable or not. Rifle or pistol stock)
as to some other issues:
if you accept money for modifications or work on a gun you are considered "in the business" and must have an FFL.(even if you do the work and return it the same day)
you cannot keep a customers fire arm over nite without a FFL as it must be logged into your books. And
you must be 21 yrs of age to get an FFL
Bill
Small Arms Restoration

 

The answer to the FFL is one that I've used many a time. Just have the owner maintain possession of the weapon while the work is being done. Period, show's over. So does the OP need an FFL? Not unless he garners possession of the weapon. And this isn't a 24 hour vs. overnight type of thing. If a guy simple takes possession of a weapon and the owner leaves for an hour lunch, the guy would indeed need an FFL. I speak from experience since I was my department's gunsmith for a number of years with an FFL in possession. Laws and paperwork got insane so I gave it up.

About the work. Finest I've seen in a long while as I own one of those guns and basically want to do the same thing. So if the OP would please send me a PM I'd love to pick your brain awhile on the pistol grip portion and how you got the regular, hole doesn't match up grip to secure on the Circuit Judge. I also have other ideas for the gun that I'd like to run by you to see what you think on the matter so Please PM me as soon as you can.

Now guns legality. With mine I first plan on getting rid of those darn chokes. Only way to do that is to cut it off thus making the barrel shorter and to add the pistol grip and shorter yet. I know that would be NFA territory so I wouldn't be done or stay that way for just a few minutes so as not to get busted. My plan is to permanently affix a phony stainless can to the muzzle of the barrel bringing it back to its 18.5 inches plus just a little bit longer to make up for the overall length loss on the pistol grip. The can will be around six inches total length and will make everyone happy and me legal. It will look awesome and the pattern will not be affected since the can (pipe) will be much larger than bore size. I then have a 20 MOA Picatinny stainless rail that will replace the existing one and make my flashlight mount converge on POA so my POI will be the same for house distances.

For those that do not know, this gun is made sold and registered as a rifle and rifle only. So why does it come with an 18.5 inch barrel? It was a way that Rossi bought off with BATFE in their agreement with them. This was not only for national sales, but specifically for California sales, Yeah!. You see CA has a big nasty looking law that says in no way with their ever be a revolving shotgun in CA. Well this gun is not. It's a revolving rifle and the feds are backing that up and threatening CA with a violation of interstate commerce if thy don't allow them into the state. Now's the time to get one and so I did. So the part of the Rossi agreement around the 18.5 inch barrel is that as a revolving rifle, if one was to put a commercially available shotgun round in it, some may question its use if the barrel was only 16.5 inches. To avoid that conflict, Rossi decided to make the barrel 18.5 inches to just stay away from that issue. Thus my project's barrel will still maintain the 18.5 inch barrel length.

 

The BATF has this thing of calling some modifications to a firearm as manufacturing (especially if money is involved).
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html#dealer-gunsmithing

And manufacturing without a license is a no-no.

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