wildcatting

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by bclark1, May 30, 2013.

  1. bclark1

    bclark1 New Member

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    So this may be a bad idea but I have been thinking about trying to design a new wildcat rifle caliber. I have heard of people creating their own one of a kind rifle calibers but I cant seem to find much information on this topic on the internet. I was thinking of using a 270 cal. bullet in a large case such as the 338 lapua mag. I dont know if something like this has already been done or if there is a reason it has not. with the large case and fairly small 270 cal. bullet i would expect it to be an extremely fast round (maybe too fast). I would like to do this just for the challenge im not trying to get certain results out of this new cartridge. If anyone knows anything about designing new cartridges any help and knowledge would be appreciated. As of right now i Know very little about this subject and of the work that goes into doing this and now it is more of a hypothetical thing until I can get a sufficient amount of info.
     
  2. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    have you given any thought as to the expense of doing something like this?

    just to start off with will be that someone will have to build a custom reamer to make the chamber. more than likely a custom built action and definately a custom barrel.

    then is going to be a custom set of dies to be made to reload the rounds. and then starting from scratch working up loads for which there isn't any loading data to start from.

    just being realistic, but unless you have some extensive machining skills and gunsmithing skills and know quite a bit about working up wildcat loads and ballistics in general, i would have to say something like this is more for someone with a lot of experiance and not a novice.

    what would be the purpose of the rifle and cartridge?
     

  3. bclark1

    bclark1 New Member

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    If i were to design a new cartridge i would like it to be a fast round for use in shooting past 350 yards however like i said before I would be doing it for the experience and chalenge not to improve apon existing cartridges.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  4. bclark1

    bclark1 New Member

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    just a follow up question. If this cartridge were to be designed just for a simple bolt action rifle what parts and tools would need to be made just to fit the gun to the Cartridge? I was also wandering if it would be easier to create a new wildcat for the ar15 platform seeing as how multiple calibers can be used anyways by simply changing the barrel and bolt.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  5. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    you do realize there are plenty of cartridges that are already capable of shooting very accurately at 350 plus yards without going to the trouble of building a wildcat?

    also that the 338 L.M. is made for pretty extreme long distance shooting? fast doesn't always equal accuracy either.

    what skills as a machinist or gunsmith do you have? what about ballistics? unless you have some serious skills as a gunsmith or machinist, IMO you would be in way over your head. like i said not something for a novice.
     
  6. Apex-Predator

    Apex-Predator New Member

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    Necking down a 338 Lapua case to .277" would indeed make for a fast mover, but it would have some nasty downsides too, first of all your barrel life would be 125 rounds so by time you were done with load development you would need to change barrels and start over. Secondly no bonded or mono metal bullet is designed to hold up to speeds like that and last but not leased you would need a 32" tube to keep the muzzle blast from setting your clothes on fire.
    Of course I am exaggerating a little, but not by much.
    My sissy kicking 6.5x55 has a 700 yard effective range on deer class game, it shoots just fine out of a 22" barrel, it weighs 6lbs, it is accurate enough to dot an i at 200 yards and no nitrous fed uber hypersonic mag is going to kill them any more dead I don't care what you do to it.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  7. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    going to have to have an action long enough to accomadate the cartridge and the 338 L.M. is a pretty decent sized cartridge. also the action and barrel will have to be able to handle the pressure of such a cartridge. pretty much most everything will have to be custom made. reamers, dies, brass and bullets.
     
  8. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    very good points. necking down from .338 to 277 is .061 of an inch. huge jump!

    plus going to have to find a barrel twist ratio that will stabilize the bullet properly. lot's of experimenting to find the right combination of components to make this work.

    apex is right. huge cases and small bullets usually end up eroding barrels pretty fast.
     
  9. bclark1

    bclark1 New Member

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    I have basic machining skills and I have acces to multiple machine shops and gunsmiths. I realize that there are already many calibers that cover basically everything i would need shooting wise however i enjoy taking on new projects and working with firearms. I am not set on necking down the 338 to 270 that was just an idea i had. If i was to create a new ar caliber would it be possible to fit it to the gun by just creating a custom barrel and bolt so long as the new cartridge fit into either the ar15 or ar10?
     
  10. Apex-Predator

    Apex-Predator New Member

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    Well in theory it would not be that hard to set up, a 1:10.5-11" twist should be plenty stable for most 150gr bullets, don't waste your time with anything lighter using a case that big trust me. Your barrel life really would be shorter then Robert Kenedy's presidential campaign, and the blast from such a monster would be NASTY to say the least, you are talking about 100gr of powder in a pencil thin bore, that would be worse then the 7mm Ultra Mag which is only pushing aprox 90 through a .284" bore.
     
  11. Apex-Predator

    Apex-Predator New Member

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    If you wanted to do something different you could always do a 6.5 WSM or neck down a 330 Dakota case to 270 or 7mm. Those are the two best modern cases IMHO. Pretty much everything that can be done to a 30-06 or 308 case has already been done a thousand times before.
     
  12. gunnut07

    gunnut07 New Member

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    First things first you can only push so much through a set diameter hole.

    Once you get to overboar cartridges that gain is negated by the extra amount of powder you need to burn.

    That 270-338 LM is going to be running some serious pressures and you need a 32"+ to harness all the power in the slow burning powders you are going to need to use in it. I am going to say you are going to get 300 to 500 rounds down the barrel before you have eroded the throat so much that you need a new barrel.
     
  13. Intheshop

    Intheshop New Member

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    JMO...and probably shouldn't respond,oh well.

    Work on the basics.....as posted above,tooling costs are at issue.If you have access to a machineshop why not just start with a simple rebarrel?Stick with a std calibre and work on all the details involved....before adding the complexity's of a new chambering.Pick a calibre that has a proven track record....buy a reamer.Which is no small matter(so many good choices).IOWs,get your ducks in a row twds building rifles before worrying about wildcats?Good luck,in any event.
     
  14. bclark1

    bclark1 New Member

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    Thanks for all the help I realize now that it is more complex than I had originally thought and much more research would be needed before attempting to design and fabricate a new cartridge.
     
  15. Apex-Predator

    Apex-Predator New Member

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    Yeah there is noting easy about it if you are trying to strike a good balance, and you will find that in the vast majority of cases the ideal balance already exits in a commercial cartridge (except for maybe the .358 caliber) You can put a twist here or make a short action there, but pretty much all the bases have been covered before.
    Some common wildcats are REALLY good, one that comes to mind in the 6.5-06 it can duplicate the performance of the 6.5mm magnums and brass can easily be formed from any 25-06 you have laying around. A few of the AI wildcats are popular as well, the 280 AI is so popular that Nosler makes brass for it despite the fact that is never has been a standardized cartridge, same can be said for the 6.5-284 1,000 yard benchrest shooters put that wildcat on the map and it is not going away anytime soon now that you can buy ammo and brass for it, but it is not longer a "wildcat" I think Norma got it standardized.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  16. Apex-Predator

    Apex-Predator New Member

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    Most wildcatting nowadays revolves around 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm and .338 calibers, they are in general capable of higher ballistic co-efficiencies then the in between calibers, before you 30 cal crowd has me lynched no I did not forget about you, the 30 calibers also are capable of radically high BC but more times then not they are the parent case hence not a wildcat (308, 30-06, 300 WSM, 300 Win Mag, and now even the 30 T/C)
     
  17. cottontop

    cottontop Guest

    FWIW, your cartridge has already been done in the form of the 7mm Remington Mag., and the 7mm STW (which is actually the 8mm Rem. Mag. necked down to 7mm). Though not .277, but actually .284, they are very close. I suppose that either one of those could be necked to .270 and your proposed cartridge and rifle could be made if you wanted to go to the expense.
    ct
     
  18. Apex-Predator

    Apex-Predator New Member

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    I know it is a bit less common but I would opt for the 330 Dakota parent case over the 8mm RM anyday. 30 degree shoulder, about 85gr case capacity (about the same as the 8mm), long neck, beltless magnum, it would run neck and neck with the 7mm Ultra Mag for speed/trajectory and unlike the 8mm RM and ultra mag it will fit in a standard 30-06 length action. If I were trying to make the ultimate 270 that is how I would do it.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013