Why the us military forces don't know how to use other countries weapons???

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by Mark_Van_Goth, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    As far as I know, only (relatively) recently the us armed forces began to train their soldier to get used to other countries' weapons(Like the ak, steyr,etc).And with really bad results-I have seen these trainings and let me say it:The average (standard) soldier is not able to use an AK as good as I'm able to use his M16/M4 carbine or an AR15 derivative.
    I'm just wondering why the american military doctrine is so focused on american weapons and ignore the rest of the world.Its troops has to face several enemies around the world, but the average american soldier simply doesn't know the enemy rifles or simply doesn't know how to operate them.Now try to imagine the following:You just run out of ammo, your only chance to get back to home alive is to use the enemy's weapons against him.But you never learnt how to use them.So what are your going to?Cry like a baby and hope the enemy will have mercy of you?!

    I have seen and heards so many times the other countries' military forces complaining about the fact the us soldiers have the greatest lack of knowledge concerning the small arms sector.The don't know how to load, to clean, to un-jam and sometimes even how to shoot the weapons(E.g.:How to disable the safety).
    Why the us government doesn't provide some extra training???
     
  2. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    Hi Mark, In 1980, I entered Basic Training, by my 4th week, I had fired both an AK 47 and 74 and heard the bullets from both whiz over my head in a razor ribbon covered low crawl trench. 21 years later, I retired with that being pretty much my only formal Hands On training with Opposing Forces small arms other than flash cards and Post Museums that contained captured equipment. I never saw combat but lots of my friends have, they definitely got lots of time familiarizing themselves during the trainup period and in the box time. I wouldnt feel to safe trying to dodge AK bullets fired by a Seasoned War Vet, you may find yourself dead doing so.

    I never got taught that IED's would be our biggest threat in a war, we were taught our enemy had eyes and ears just like us. Sadly, our chicken Sh!t enemies wont confront us with AK anything if they have a chance to blow us up without risking their own asses doing it. Identifying and disarming IED's is much more pertinent general training than how to fire an AK.

    The training needed to become an 11H (Anti Armor) in the 90's was pretty intense and deep with US Equipment alone. My platoon carried 4 TOW Missile Systems, 2/ Mark 19's and 2/ 50 Cal Machine Guns. Thats 3 full crew serve weapons systems that every single member of the platoon must know intimately and a wheeled vehicle to move us and our crap everywhere. Thats pretty much enough without learning the possible enemies weapons as well. Too many possibilities with that one, were better off adding specific training about our enemies weapons into the mix just before and during deployment otherwise its a guess what your enemy will throw at you.
     

  3. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Too many subjects, too much maintenance, too little time.

    SOME US forces do receive VERY basic training on OPFOR rifles. We would prefer that they not use OPFOR weapons except as a last resort- I tended to shoot at the sound of an AK being fired.
     
  4. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    Note the OP didnt say we lost many battles because we couldnt field strip an AK in the dark! Our Systems and small arms are pretty reliable and from what Ive been told, Uncle Sugar has lots of Bullets (even if we cant get any for our civilian weapons).

    One last note, I bought owned and sold my first and only AK in 1985, it was fun but worth twice what I had bought it for just 3 weeks prior so down the road it went!
     
  5. Anna_Purna

    Anna_Purna New Member

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    Back in the 6 day war between Israel and the towelheadites, Israeli Soldiers would opt to put down their M16s and use the enemys AK's. Aks have a distict sound over an M16, and they learned they were getting more 'friendly fire' accidents using the enemys rifles over their own. I'd say that is probably one reason why the US military doesn't train in other countries weapons.
     
  6. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    In 2003-04 my unit had to train 150 icdc troops in basic small unit tactics and small arms not one of us had a problem picking up an ak and operating it and breaking it down and not only aks but we captured a few g3 clones a bunch of makarovs and tokerovs, RPGs and tons of other weapons we familiarized ourselves with the weapons then repurposed them for use by the icdc guys. We were always told not to pick up and use enemy weapons by our command. They always said if it's that bad another m16 or m4 will be laying around for you to pick up personally I'll grab a RPG, an ak, an rpk or whatever I need to to kill them first and get back home
     
  7. Jagermeister

    Jagermeister New Member

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    The Germans and US forces get to practice with each other's firearms over here.
     
  8. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    yeah I got my shutzanschneer sp? when I was on tdy in Graf in 2001
     
  9. CrazedJava

    CrazedJava New Member

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    It's been a long time since I talked to anyone in the military on the subject that would know anything about it but here is the best of my recollection.

    Part of it is simple training. It takes a decent amount of time to become truly proficient with any weapon, and for those that may actually have to fire their weapons in anger it's more than range time. So that's hours, days, and weeks worth of time lugging around your M16, M4, M60, M240, M249, or whatever it is they are using these days (The M60 is retired, right?). The basics of firearms usage is pretty much the same. Assault rifles have selector switches, triggers, bullets come out the pointy end, etc. However, the variations between function, caliber, and ergonomics can vary wildly even though I think most Americans, especially non-military, just assume all the bad guys use some kind of AK.

    Aside from proficiency though, I was told that American service members were discouraged from picking up enemy weapons because there is no knowledge of what the maintenance of said weapon has had. Why drop an M16 in the middle of battle that you have some idea of what you've done with it versus some stranger's weapon that could have been drug through the mud. I say this with the full knowledge that some of my college classmates were involved in Desert Shield/Storm and carried enemy AK's on a regular basis, but these were weapons recovered in the field and maintained by their unit. Interestingly, I have not heard any stories about our latest Middle Eastern adventures of US troops using non-US weapons.

    All in all, I think picking up an unknown weapon and using it is a last resort. Whether military or otherwise. Too many unknowns.
     
  10. SSGN_Doc

    SSGN_Doc Well-Known Member

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    Who's got time to train with OPFOR weapons with all of the other required training?

    I've got to get through:

    Disaster Preparedness.
    Anti-terrorism
    Information security
    Health Information Protection
    Sensitivity training toward gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender personnel
    Benefits changes with regard to gay marriage
    Sexual harrasment prevention
    Sexual assault prevention and reporting
    Responsible alcohol use
    Synthetic drug recognition and prevention
    Management of civilian personnel and furlough
    BLS
    TCCC
    ACLS
    Fill out command climate surveys,
    Attend training planning meetings
    Personnel staffing meetings
    Answer patient complaints
    Vaccine training
    Teach Basic Corpsman Skills classes
    Conduct advancement training
    Physical fitness training 3-4 times per week.

    Oh yeah, and do my job supervising my 120 person staff of Junior enlisted, junior officers, and civilian medical assistants, nurses, and physiscians assistant, and maintain 25 hours of patient contact time per month (what was once my primary job only requires 25 hours per month), along with 18 continuting medical eduaction units per year. Write periodic evaluations, transfer evaluations, awards, disciplinary counseling, and training record entries.

    What were we talking about?
     
  11. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    Oh and we played with a captured aa 4 barreled 12.7 mm I've got a video somewhere where we came running out of our barracks jumped into the 3 seats and spun the wheels as fast as we could to get us spinning and the barrel traversing until someone got sick and fell off( the **** soldiers do to entertain themselves in a combat zone)
     
  12. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    In our current conflicts I would be careful about picking up anything lying there like a shiny penny. I don't care to find out if there are 72 virgins or Saint Peter in heaven.
     
  13. Alwayscarrying

    Alwayscarrying New Member

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    We don't receive specialized training in other weapon systems because like Doc said, we have so many other things to train on and achieve on any given day. In addition to that not all of us are dedicated trigger pullers. Now, some of us may get the opportunity to partake in informal training with foreign visiting militaries. Like in AIT, we had a lot of aussies coming to the U.S. to attend some of our schools and we trained with them to some extent. On that note, Australia probably has the better of the AUG variants.
     
  14. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Thank you for sharing your experience.But it is still strange to me.I was to trained to use almost everything-and I keep learning still today.I keep myself up-to-date(I keep learning how to use new generation weapons, even I'm a retired vet)
     
  15. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    If you have got involved into a battle than you know a basic rules:On one size, you draw friendly fire;on the other you confuse the enemy because he didn't realize that you're getting closer.I undarstand what you say, but...I was trained differently.E.g.: I hate the AR15 platform because buttstock cannot be folded.This feature, present on the ak platform, saved my life several times and made the ak a superior weapon in CQC
     
  16. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Pretty reliable?I bet I can permanently disable with no difficulties an M16/M4 in normal combat operation.How?Simple:put it into the water(let's say river or lake), take out quickly and try to shoot it.The receiver will blow up!Alternatively, you can try to throw in a sand bag and hope the bolt is not opened, neighter.If only small quantities will enter the chamber the game is over.The ar15 platform has been improved a lot but...would you compare it to the vz58, any AK, any HK G3,FAL or galil or HK416/7 series?...Please,be serious.

    Personally, I consider the AR15 a great platform, but the way it works is not even far away it shout work.That's why the US govenment opted to replace the M4/M16 with the HK416 series!It uses a better gas system(short-stroke gas system instead of the direct infringement) and is far more reliable.

    THE HK126 IS A BADASS WEAPON....RELIABLE AS THE AK, ACCURATE AS THE M16.
     
  17. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Are you sure that it is not, at least partially, a matter of the so called "American-made foolosophy"?Americans are used to give great importance to the fact the something is made in the USA(Strong National spirit).Even if the stuff is evidently "inferior" to the foreing one.Example given?Would you compare the european small arms manufacturers with the American ones?!We have HK, FN Herstal,Beretta, Benelli, Zastava Arms, Mauser, etc.These suppliers are known among the whole world for being "la creme de la creme"("The elite", "the best of") of weapon manufacturing.But the US govenment was used to stick to the US made stuff, even if the european stuff was much better.Now they finally change their minds, even because many EU manufacturer openend their facilities in the USA, so the local production may take place even in the USA.

    Face it:The HK G3 was superior to the first versions of the M16, so it is now the g36(Considered by many as the "natural succesor" tp the G3), HK416.The best submachinegun in the world is still the HK MP5(you can say or think what you want...just ask any spec ops unit), the best pistol(handgun) is the HK P2000.All are German made.The best sniper rifle?Accuracy international AWM, UK made.The best anti-riot gun?FN 300, belgian made.The best AK even made?Zastava M70, Serbian made.The best machinegun and most inspiring machinegun?MG42 and its derivatives(Like the MG3, again German.The first and most important Bolt action ever made?Mauser 98, again german made.An the list goes on.

    Let me say it:Americans are innovators as well, but they cannot compete with europeans in terms of quality.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2013
  18. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    That's the way it should be done...almost.Using the weapons of the enemy might be dangerous, but if necessary it can save your life.And sometimes the enemy has some really "nasty" stuff...why should you it against him?
     
  19. CrazedJava

    CrazedJava New Member

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    Welcome to globalization. The current M4's and M16's are made by FN in a plant located in North Carolina (U.S.A.)

    For the longest time H&K was owned by BAE, which is a British company and many in the SAS considered their MP5's to be "British" guns because H&K was owned by a British company.
     
  20. Mark_Van_Goth

    Mark_Van_Goth New Member

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    Interesting opinion.I agree partially with it.Why?Simple.Your enemy will look after about his weapons as you would, since even he wants to neutralize you.While in combat, I took and used one of the best serviced rifles of my life.Sure, you have to check 'em, but one the job has been done, you can used them on regular basis.