Why Running Might be the Worst Thing to DO

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by BigO01, Aug 23, 2008.

  1. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

    578
    0
    0
    I can't even begin to recall how many threads I've read and or participated in involving real and theoretical situations and one subject people never seen to discuss is the how and why some people would be much better of to automatically engage a threat rather than waste precious seconds trying to escape a deadly shooting .

    So here goes a shot at trying to share my thoughts .

    First off can you run ? Yes I mean the physical act of running without keeling over having a heart attack .

    How many married working people in their 30's beyond have had a reason to break out into and all out dash even for say 50 yards ? It isn't exactly a skill most need for raising the kids , paying the bills even when you take into consideration working all day , not many jobs require it . This is needed even less the older you get .

    Then theres the ability to run hunched over so as to present as small a target as you can . How many close to or over age 40 can do this without running the real chance of having their back lock up on them and perhaps go into spasms ?

    How fleet are you on your feet ? Suppose you have a nice fairly clear shot "run" at a doorway and the shooter is faced the other way , only one problem you have to make small jumps over the bodies of those already down and or perhaps other small obstacles like say a baby stroller here and there . You jump a body and a foot lands in a puddle of blood , can you keep your balance and keep running without falling on you azz ?

    Then there's the ever popular topic of using cover when shots ring out and a madman is 30 ' away perhaps with his back turned to you .

    You don't have time to just sashay your azz over to something to hide behind and get comfy you better move your little azz as fast as you can and to many they might instinctively try diving behind something solid .

    When's the last time you dove on the ground ? Yes yes I know you use to play football in the mud and even the hard packed ground without pads and for those of us really stupid we even played a game or two in paved parking lots and streets , problem is that was all 20-25+ years ago or more can you still hit the ground that hard and not get the wind knocked out of you ?

    Can you still instinctively roll when you hit the ground to prevent injury ?

    See I've done all this crap and more , jumped off of a roof or two without a trip to the hospital by hitting the ground rolling , taken hot grounders to the chest and thrown out the batter before he got to first , run the catcher over and knocked the ball loose so I was safe etc. etc. .

    Problem is this was all many years and miles and miles ago on my back and knees and I don't delude myself into thinking I'll magically be able to do it all again just because bullets are flying around .

    Fact of the matter is when it comes down to a shooting if any these things come into play your age and physical condition and that of your attacker will be taken into consideration . One hardly expects a man to run to prevent having to shoot an attacker or prevent being shot and chance dieing because of a known physical condition .

    For all of the younger crowd that thinks running will always be the best plan I suggest you get and stay in tip top condition your entire life and pray your back doesn't get hurt in some freak accident .
     
  2. ScottG

    ScottG New Member

    1,614
    0
    0
    I guess it would come down to a choice between trying to run and possibly being shot, or standing like a target and surely getting shot.

    In your scenario, if the shooter has his back to you, then he's going to be shot by me! If someone is looking to shoot and takes his eyes off of me if I'm armed, then it's the end of him. No running necessary.

    If I'm unarmed and he's close enough and not looking at me, then anything at hand that can be used as a weapon is going to be in my hands. I would hope that other people in the area will think the same thing. If, as some experts have said, that a man within a few feet can rush an armed person and engage before a gun can be brought to bear, then attacking instead of running will probably work. Hopefully, the shooter will be startled enough to see someone actually daring to engage unarmed that one or two seconds will freeze him enough to make my attack successful.

    It all depends on the circumstances: who else is around and can an attack be made successfully.
     

  3. retleo99

    retleo99 New Member

    13
    0
    0
    One of the best firearms/traffic stop classes I ever took in my 28 years as an LEO broke the mold of all the classes we were ever taught.

    The Basics: MOVE!, DRAW!, SHOOT!

    The Course was designed as a live fire course intertwined with something Cops do the most of and get killed the most on - the Traffic Stop. However, after taking this I automatically (without thinking) incorporated it into every aspect of my daily work.

    If you're responding to a "man with gun" or robbery call, you expect to encounter an armed suspect, so you're probably drawn and at the ready from the get-go. But make a stop on some soccer mom who's just made an illegal turn or other minor infraction, you're not at your highest threat level.

    Not being a medical professional, it was explained to me like this: If you suddenly find yourself taken by surprise with a gun pointed at you, that prospective shooter has got you in his/her sights and is focused on YOU!

    Make a quick move while drawing makes that shooter divert their attention from where you were to where you went to. It may be only a second or two, but that short time can be the difference between going home or to the hospital or morgue. Making that move to cover is a plus, but ANY move increases your chances of survival.

    Credit this Course to Bob Magnuson, Maple Heights (OH) PD (probably retired by now)

    Bob (no relation)
     
  4. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,516
    828
    113
    You have just summed up why you should never mess around with an old man. We are accustomed to pain, we CAN'T run, and we WILL fight.
     
  5. DFENS

    DFENS New Member

    67
    0
    0
    "Back in the day" when I was a wee lad in martial arts training (not "karate" or "mma", but martial arts, that wonderful quest for self-improvement, that lifelong journey to be more), there was a self-defence drill where, first move, instead of handling a percieved threat or launching a counterattack, the defender creates a distraction. Essentially going "Woohoo!" while waving a hand in the air.

    Never had a chance to use it, but the style I trained in was very much authentic. Probably the oldest non-"kung fu" style (Shuri-Ryu if anyone is interested).

    Personally, I'd run if I had the chance. If someone's fool enough to point a gun in my face, however, he/she'd better hope that not only is the trigger finger faster than my arms, but also that they have better reaction time than me (doubtful on both counts) and that they can follow me as I drop a good half-foot or more while making my move to "disarm".

    "Disarm" in this case would likely end with the arm being broken in a few places.

    My .02
     
  6. frank_1947

    frank_1947 New Member

    127
    0
    0
    In the State of Missouri we passed a law few months back that you do not have to go through a bunch of BS if someone breaks into your home, unlike most States we do not have to say (I have a gun ) and I am calling 911, before shooting intruder, you can now just shoot. I always wondered if the intruder lived and the home owner did not announce he had a gun and did not say all that how would it play out in court.
     
  7. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    11,380
    2
    0
    Regardless of what you do, you must have a plan BEFORE you get into that situation. One of the things I was taught (and still seems valid today) is "Do something even if it is wrong". Action beats inaction every time. Just stupidly standing there is a recipe for death. BUT, in the midst of an armed encounter is not the time to fabricate a plan. The plan MUST be worked out beforehand.

    Our brains are very much like computers, the fastest responses are pre-programmed. Our brains have cognitive abilities (can problem solve) but these abilities take up a lot of "RAM".

    Think of the TERMINATOR in the first movie. He climbed into his little hotel room, kinda shot up and starting to smell bad. The manager of the hotel (probably not smelling alot better) knocked at the door and inquired "Hey buddy, whaddaya got in there, a dead cat?". The Terminator having no ability to work out the problem, refers to a list of pre-programmed responses that are visible in his eyes. He scrolls down to one response that his computer mind chooses as the best response, "Fu@* You, A$$hole!" (With a distinctive Austrian accent) and the manager goes away.

    You must have a plan and maybe a backup plan as no plan survives first contact with the enemy. Beyond that you are making a mistake in trying to plan for every continigincy. Hicks Law states that each added option from which you can choose doubles your reaction time. Have a plan. Make it a simple one and put it into action very quickly.

    Every year about a third of the officers who are killed in the line of duty die doing NOTHING. Running may not be the best plan but it beats the heck out of no plan.
     
  8. flbandit

    flbandit New Member

    46
    0
    0
    They would probably sue and (sadly) stand a chance given our current system! One thing to remember is that career criminals are very versed in working the system. As far as running away, I will if I think I can make it to safety, but given a broken vertebrae in my back, much more than a few yards, (or diving and jumping) risks paralysis. I'm pretty much stuck with fighting back. Guess I need the CCW.
     
  9. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,516
    828
    113
    Was just reminded of the story of the youngster picking up his girl for a first date. Dad reminded him "I have a 30-06, and backhoe, and 200 acres of land out back. Have her home at 11:00. "
     
  10. tbill

    tbill New Member

    18
    0
    0
    Run, are you kidding?

    During my youth, my best time in the 100 yard dash was vastly slower than any primitive weapon, and I mean rock throwing type of weapon. I haven't speeded up any in 53 years, so I carry a gun and practice like crazy drawing from concealment and moving just enough to spoil the other guy's aim. I figure just watching me will probably get the other guy laughing long enough for me to double-tap him.:)
     
  11. Mark F

    Mark F New Member Supporter

    2,918
    0
    0
    In Texas, if someone breaks into your home... You Shoot Them.

    If you DON'T DROP THEM IN THIER TRACKS and they run out the door, you follow them and Shoot Them Again...

    We don't like home invaders especially at night.
     
  12. grayburst

    grayburst New Member

    1
    0
    0
    I turn 38 this week. Seventeen years of military duty between active and guard has given me the impetus to stay in shape, but I know I'm close to retirement. Will I have the concentration to keep in shape as I get older? It's topics like this that makes me stop and think that I better. I have a wife and sons who are depending upon me to be there to defend them and come home every night if nothing else.
     
  13. Texanbybirth

    Texanbybirth New Member

    205
    0
    0
    I used to run 100m in 10.8sec, a 4.7 sec 40yds, and a mile in well under 5 minutes. At 41, that's out the window. I still work out and can run several miles if necessary. I'm stronger than ever, but my agility is pathetic. I can't run very well carrying my 7 year old and dragging my wife anyway. I'm glad I live in TX.
     
  14. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

    2,396
    0
    0
    The "Move" in the equation doesn't necessarily mean "Run 50 yards". It means to take the initiative to introduce an action into a situation with the sole intent of giving you an intended advantage for a firing solution.
    If I run 50 yards, it's because I can't help the situation. My azz is heading for the Greyhound station. If you're standing beside a guy who is pumping lead into a schoolbus full of kids, shoot him. No running required.
    There are no absolutes in anything. Well, there's math..........but you know what I mean. Moving is an option which decreases in value as distance increases. With a muzzle pressed against the side of your head, the best thing to do is to lean into it, preparatory to doing a little spin move to get your head out of the line of fire, but I'm not an instructor so I will leave it at that. At distance, that time MIGHT be better spent ensuring a near-perfect shot, but who's to say what variables are at play. Immediate cover is always a good thing, and it's harder to hit a moving target than it is a stationary one.
    One of those variables is physical conditioning. I've been working on one-handed operation and shooting because I have shoulder surgery coming up. I'm also exploring options for concealing weapons in my sling. Preparedness beats quick thinking every time. :D
     
  15. Jay

    Jay New Member

    736
    0
    0
    There it is in a nutshell....... Part of that plan should be training to shoot while moving. Roll a volleyball across your range and count hits...... learn anything? I'm 61, had a triple bypass, and I can still empty an 8 round mag into a silhouette target while moving rapidly to cover, at 20 feet. You will perform as you train.
     
  16. big shrek

    big shrek Well-Known Member

    1,835
    48
    48
    This is why, if they aren't dead yet, you shoot them again until they are dead. Then, if they do not already have a weapon, you take a Large Kitchen knife from the kitchen and place it in their hand, getting fingerprints on it in several places...then drop it next to them.

    You then tell the cops that you shot them again because they reached for the knife after you shot them the first time, you yelled for them to stop, but they kept reaching for the knife, so you plugged 'em again until they were dead.

    Work the system like they do. Just make sure you are the only witness left to talk about it. :D

    Watch a few season of CSI shows as well...helps to know how to do it right ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2009
  17. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,516
    828
    113
    Just remember- never aggravate people that own large pieces of earthmoving machinery. It is REAL easy for them to dig a large hole, very quickly. :rolleyes:
     
  18. dnthmn2004

    dnthmn2004 New Member

    3,287
    0
    0
    When a L3 moved into my neighborhood, I took the liberty of knocking on his door, while performing a very intentional open carry, and telling him if he even thought about touching my kid, the trash comes on Monday and he will be missing on Tuesday. I'm just a little above average size, well built, and this guy was 5 nothin and practically sniffing my belly button. He was scared sh1tless and I haven't seen or heard from him yet.
     
  19. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

    1,149
    101
    63
    Some of the ideas appearing on this thread are, well, "questionable".

    Key Points :
    1) Do not tamper with evidence ( see Ayoobs 5 reasons not to ) .

    2) Do not let anyone see your carry gun . They may call the police and lie, saying you brandished it ...or do worse .

    3) If an intruder has broken into your home, assume he is an imminant threat to life and limb .
     
  20. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

    13,934
    4
    0
    If you make me move any faster than I want to. I am going to say there is a 85% chance I am going to shoot you. If you make me run and get my gun to shoot you there is a 96.8% chance I am going to shoot you. If you make me run get my gun and then sweat on my 1911 there is a 150% chance I am going to shoot you then shoot 7 more times. Then I am going to kick you in the balls because you made me run.