Why Optics? Opening a Can of Worms...

Discussion in 'Optics & Mounts' started by JW357, Jan 10, 2014.

  1. JW357

    JW357 New Member

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    Ok everyone. Please let me start by saying that I mean no disrespect. And I would never presume to tell any of you how to setup your weapons.

    All that being said, I don't understand optics and glass on firearms.

    It just seems like cheating to me. Unless you're doing actual long range shooting. I understand that.

    I consider long range to be 500 yards or more. This is because the Marine Corps trained me to shoot on an M16 out to 500 yards with iron sights. The front sight post is the exact width of the target we shoot at for 500 yards. So as long as we have our windage and elevation set correctly, all you have to do is cut the target in half vertically with the front sight post, apply all fundamentals, and you'll hit the black, which is a man sized silhouette.

    Now, I understand not everyone can join the military to learn how to shoot properly. But there are plenty of good trainers out there who can teach better than what I received, or at least AS good.

    So, why not shoot on irons? I think they're slightly more challenging and therefore much more fun.

    Most hunting occurs at less than 100 yards in North America. Yet a lot of hunters tend to load up their rifles with the best glass, even if the caliber can't really reach out as far as the round itself. Different platforms for different applications, right? I mean let's be honest - a 30-30 isn't going to reach out further than maybe 200 yards with the best ammo. Yet people load their 30-30s up with optics. I'm gonna be honest, part of our yearly qualification is shooting moving targets (walkers) at 100 yards. I learned this on irons. 200 yards is the closest distance we shoot for static targets. I learned all this on irons. Yes, we shoot with ACOGs now, and I hate them. I can use them well, but they're not my cup of tea.
    So why optics? Extreme distance shooting? Lazyness? Preference? Why?

    Again, I mean no disrespect. And as said, I wouldn't presume to tell anyone else how to deal with their equipment or how to shoot (just ask my wife about her pistol shooting grip!).
     
  2. JW357

    JW357 New Member

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    I realized that I didn't get all my thoughts out as well as I would have liked. I had too much I wanted to say and now I forget some of it. Plus its 11:06 pm so that doesn't help.

    But I opened the can of worms, so to speak. So I look forward to the ensuing discussion.
     

  3. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    honestly, old age is setting in and my eyesight just isn't what it use to be, even with glasses. it is much harder for me to use open sights like i did even just five years ago.

    i would never scope my Winchester model 94 30-30 for love or money, no matter how bad my eyesight gets!

    IMO, some riflles are meant to be scoped and some aren't.
     
  4. JW357

    JW357 New Member

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    This, to me, is possibly the best reason to scope a weapon if not shooting at extreme distances. We can't always help our body objecting to age. I have experienced it some already, and I'm only 25.
     
  5. DeltaF

    DeltaF New Member

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    Easy. I live in the sticks. It's pitch black at night. I don't have NVGs. I want to know where I'm aiming my rifle without giving away my position. Therefore I at least need tritium night sights, which I have on my Glock, or a red dot sight which I have on my AR. I've tried shooting animals in the dark with a shotgun that had no night sights and it was an epic fail.
     
  6. winds-of-change

    winds-of-change The Balota's Staff Member

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    I have a lot of fun shooting my scoped Ruger Mark II.

    I wanted to scope my rifle but was told a scoped lever action rifle just doesn't 'look right'. I thought about it and agreed. The rifle will remain unscoped.
     
  7. JW357

    JW357 New Member

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    That's interesting. So how so you illuminate the animal without giving away your position? Surely a red dot doesn't so THAT. Although truth be told I've never used a red dot.

    Night sigts, I understand. Even though I guess technically they're not "irons," they're still a traditional aiming system.

    But again all those things only allow you to immunitate your SIGHTS, right? Not the target?
     
  8. JW357

    JW357 New Member

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    Did you buy the Ruger scoped or did you add it later? Just curious.
     
  9. DeltaF

    DeltaF New Member

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    I don't necessarily need to illuminate the target. I can usually see well enough to find it in the dark. But seeing black sights in the dark is a totally different story.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  10. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    My eye sight really sucks. I can barely make out the black on a standard rifle target at 100 yards. Any farther, and I'm just guessing where the center is. Though, I shoot for accuracy. I want single hole groups. For me, having hits on the black is only part of my objective. This is why I have a 6-24x scope on my 30-06. I even have my AR scoped with a 3-9x Bushnell Banner. LOVE that set up. It can easily shoot sub MOA groups with some of my reloads. :D

    Then again, I will probably never scope my Mosin.
     
  11. winds-of-change

    winds-of-change The Balota's Staff Member

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    Bought it like this............(sorry for the poor quality picture)

    [​IMG]

    And it now looks like this..........

    [​IMG]
     
  12. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    Originally my primary reason was Speed.
    I am not a hunter and view my rifles as tools of conflict and so speed is of the essence.

    With a Red dot or a Holographic you dont have to achieve perfect ( or even good) sight alignment before you pull the trigger so it really speeds up your ability to engage.

    Now I have another reason.

    I recently had eye surgery and while I now no longer need contacts and my vision w/o contacts is now 20/15 (from 20/500) on my shooting eye (the lefts outcome was only 20/50 but it was from 20/700) the addition of the internal lens (it was ICL surgery) created significant far sighedness where there was none before.

    (before I was 20/20 both eyes with contacts and little to no farsightedness)

    I can no longer see my FSP properly sharply.

    It has really impacted my shooting with Irons, to the point where the fuzziness affects my POI in the x axis, up/down ....makes me miss shots.
    With a redot or a HWS and the way they are collimated my farsighedness has little effect.
    (a tiny effect with the AIMpoint and no negative effect with the Eotech)

    In very bright sunlight my pupils pinpoint.. so my farsightedness is less bad but even then its still a significant problem for my X axis POI.

    I own a total of 4 electrooptics, 2 Aimpoint PRO and 2 EoTechs so I will never be w/o when I need a rifle.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  13. JW357

    JW357 New Member

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    Its amazing how different that thing looks.

    I'm glad you enjoy it.

    :)
     
  14. JW357

    JW357 New Member

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    Very honest reasons and thank you.

    Its interesting that you are willing to sacrifice a bit of accuracy (I mean precision) for speed. A lot of people go the opposite direction. Although I can't disagree with your logic.
     
  15. blucoondawg

    blucoondawg New Member

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    For fastest possible shooting in hunting situations such as deer drives where we are in woods not fields and don't have many openings to get on target and a deer may be moving fast I prefer a peep sight, next would be standard open sight, after that would be a scope. When hunting from a blind or tree stand where the deer are likely standing or walking slowly and there is the possibility of a long shot I prefer the scope, however the biggest reason I decided to go with scope for stand type hunting is light collection. If you have a deer standing 90 yards off and it is getting on towards dark or it is early in the morning and not quite full daylight, a good scope will collect enough light to make me able to distinguish what I am looking at, buck or doe or fawn, etc. This is impossible without a scope, and I don't carry binoculars.
     
  16. Jagermeister

    Jagermeister New Member

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    I hunt boar at night. I could not see the game without my x56 scope. The wide lens allows enough light to verify that I am making a heart shot, and allows for identification. Also, a scope helps me ensure that I am making a shot that will lessen the suffering of an animal. All my harvests have been one shot kills. It is not cheating. It is being humane.
     
  17. Donn

    Donn Active Member

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    I didn't learn to shoot in the Army, but they did hone my rudimentary skills to a pretty high level of proficiency. Like 357, we used iron sights and I prefer iron to this day. That said, every Soldier and Marine who deployed to Iraq and/or Afghanistan has an ACOG equipped weapon. I couldn't understand why till I used one. Now I know. Every shooter should learn the basics on iron sights, but optics do make good shooters better and average/below average shooters competent.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  18. eatmydust

    eatmydust New Member

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    The quarry deserves the best possible shot placement, to minimize suffering. The best legal, available sighting system not only puts more meat in the larder, it is more humane.
     
  19. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

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    I'm 25 also - just celebrating my 40 Anniversary of being 25. :)

    Personally I don't think optics are needed on pistols - just my opinion. Rifles are a different story. We set targets at 100, 200 yards and it isn't possible to see a .22 LR hole at those distances without some help.

    The optics can be either a rifle mounted scope, hand held scope or a spotting scope. We will be buying a rifle scope and use it for multiple purposes.
     
  20. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    My Mosin/Nagant, Enfields, Mausers, and K31s wear iron. My Marlin levers- iron. My Savage 17 HMR has enough glass that I can read the lettering on the international space station. My .220 Swift- folks that handle the Hubble Space Telescope asked if they can check theirs against mine. Have a couple of .308s/ .243s that are set up for shooting across a beanfield (deer). They wear much smaller glass.

    When shooting a peoples at a distance, a hit anywhere on center mass was good- (I learned on the M14, and our long targets were 700 meters)

    I like critters more than I like some peoples. I do not want to wound a critter, but get a clean, 1 shot, Dead-right-there, fell over where he was standing shot. Need to pick my bullet placement to go into about a 4-5 inch zone. Scope helps.

    Can also help determine- are those antlers? Or a branch? :p