Why i support carrying guns

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by clip11, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. clip11

    clip11 New Member

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    I was talking to my granddad who is a pastor and we were talking about owning and carrying guns. He is of the thought that God is all the protection a person needs and that anything that may happen to you, God allows it to happen so you shouldn't interfere with his plans.He also said that since I used to box and can bench press almost 400 pounds I shouldn't need a gun. Then he asked the question could I live with killing someone?

    The quick answer to that is yes...yes I can. It may seem cold hearted, but when someone attacks me with the intent to do me injury or death, then they become an enemy of mine for which I have no feeling for. There was recently a story about a marine and his wife being attacked by about 20 teens outside of a Florida movie theater. One of the male teens punched the wife out cold. Now no one plans for these things to happen. Im sure this couple didnt leave the house that night planning to be jumped, but it happened. I carry because of incidents like that. If 20 teens or anyone tried to jump on me in a public place I have a right to be, I will use my weapon. But they're just kids you say? A 15 year old boy thats 6'2 180 pounds is not a kid just because he's the chronological age of 15. He can do just as much physical damage as someone 18+.

    I carry because I feel strongly about the 2nd amendment and my God given right to self defense. Im of the mind that I refuse to take a beating or worse just because "I wouldn't want to hurt anybody". As far as me boxing is concerned, I'm not totally helpless without a gun, however, anyone can be overwhelmed by numbers, like the marine above, and especially so if those numbers are carrying knives or blunt objects. Thats how I feel.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011
  2. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    This tends to be a discussion ruled by emotions rather than logic- but sometime you might ask your Grandad- when Christ was instructing his disciples to prepare for a road trip, he directed them as he did in Luke 22:36.


    Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
     

  3. clip11

    clip11 New Member

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    Yes he did. Also, may persons throughout the bible were known to carry weapons. Abraham was called a friend of God but he was armed with many swords and spears.
     
  4. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    It's understandable what your granddad said. But the issue quickly becomes one of philosophy: do you take prudent steps to see to your well-being, as you would if you were a farmer and had to plant at a certain time or harvest at a certain time? Would you ignore your responsibilities and throw caution to the wind and say "The Lord will provide for me"? Or would you do what is necessary to get food?

    What if the situation doesn't call for self-defense but the defense of another? Should you go unarmed because the lord will protect the innocent...or not? If you aren't armed and people die as a result, is that the will of the Lord? If you are armed and people don't die as a result, is that the will of the Lord? Probably, your granddad would answer "yes" to each question.

    So with all things being equal, carry a gun.

    And another thing...while it would be difficult for me, personally, to deal with taking someone else's life, I guarantee you it would be far MORE difficult to deal with NOT taking the life of an assailant if it resulted in someone innocent being killed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011
  5. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    My quandary with the whole religious aspect of self-defense is this:

    God will protect me. Ok I'll buy that. Now as to the manner of His protection:

    Does he directly intervene with lightning bolts or does He make the means of protection available to me - if I'm perceptive enough to avail myself of it?
     
  6. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Old story- man stranded by flood, turns away offers of rescue from the National Guard, Game Warden with boat, and, having reached roof of house, a Coast Guard helicopter- telling each rescuer "God will look after me." After the flood crested and swept him to his death, he wound up face to face with St. Peter at the Pearly Gates- and expressed his puzzlement- why did God not look after him? St. Peter checked his book, and with a puzzled look, said " Not sure what the problem is- we sent a Jeep, a boat, and a helicopter after you."

    Translation- Put your faith in God, but row AWAY from the rocks.
     
  7. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    i put my faith in god in the afterlife. in this mortal realm god gave us john moses browning, and by his hand, god gave us the 1911 by which to defend ourselves through the trials of life. he gave us the constitution of the united states and the bible by which to guide our actions while in this realm and the intellect from which to choose right.

    never in any of my readings of the bible have i ever gleamed a hint that the almighty expected us to go through life living at the whim of evil doers.
     
  8. corrinavatan

    corrinavatan New Member

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    This is a very, VERY good point. If you don't mind, I'm writing that one down.

    As to a few things the pastor said:

    So, you are tall and can bench 400 pounds. A 12 year old in a wheelchair and only one functioning arm with a .22 can still kill you. Being physically imposing doesn't mean crap.

    The other thing about the "God's plan" thing that George Carlin has a spiel about (which I will paraphrase)

    If God, who is Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent, has a plan, why do Christians pray?

    Christians pray to do well at a job interview, pray that they will find their soul mate, pray to win the lottery, pray that their grandparents won't die of cancer, etc.

    Now, when they pray, they are asking (directly or indirectly) for God's intercession in his own Plan.

    So, if God has a Plan, and his Will be Done, why do we pray? If God's Plan was perfect and immutable, praying wouldn't change anything.

    If God actually DOES answer prayers, doesn't it mean that God's plan isn't immutable and perfect?

    (this then leads to a spiel about how praying to some actor has the same "desired outcome" as praying to God).
     
  9. easterner123

    easterner123 New Member

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    Fourth Commandment

    Damn. Its like the second amendment. No BS about its intention

    "Thou shalt not kill."
    -God
    Well, that is a humdinger. Its pretty evident what that means, that disciples of god should show how His way is best through the practice of martyrdom when threatened with force, and that peace is the best route. Peace is the best route. I however am not a martyr, and will leave that to someone who has a different perspective than I. My personal philosophy is that all the writings about how these rulers and people of power in the past were sacred followers of god is wrong. They were not the spittin image of what He was looking for us to be here on earth. Case in point, look at Joshua. I'm not talking about taking over Israel, but just how he acquired his wife Bathsheba. Not the nicest guy...

    Idk, I'm no expert. But I imagine I will react and repent or feel emotional later. Thats the nice thing about being catholic, go to confession and all sins are forgiven, handy thing in todays world isn't it?

    IF YOU CARRY you should be able to drop hammer on any threat while you are carrying. No point in doing it if you aren't gonna follow through

    Oh, and don't tear me apart on the biblical history, I don't mean to offend anyone, just my take.
     
  10. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    God may tend to his flock, or appoint someone to look after them.

    The general belief as has been explained to me, is that a Pastor/Rabbi/Priest is the one who God appointed to look after the flock, guide them, provide them with the strength, the courage, the moral fortitude to "withstand" what is before them.

    Now if we look at countries with vast genocide in the past 50 to 70 years, you will see a history of deaths in countries and villages that had religious figures who were the head of their local Church/Parish/Get Together/Town Meeting or general place of get together & common Religious/ Ideological / Philosophical thought sharing.

    No one questioned that the person in charge was appointed by their Lord or Higher Power and when the time came, they looked to this leader to protect them. To herd the flock from the harm.

    If you read this history, you can draw the conclusion that evil men do evil things to good people, and you can choose to deduce from that the person in charge of those respective flocks was not sent by God, or that God's will was to allow all those people to die horrible deaths at the hands of the truly evil.

    I can't pass judgement on that. I know that IF I do hit the Gates and stand before an Ultimate Judge, the book on me will contain the Good and the Bad, and I don't know which will outweigh the other, though I would like to think I know the answer.

    Having said that, this is what I KNOW is a fact for me personally.

    There are wolves in the wild, they come in that 'guise as evil men, with bad intentions who will do the utmost harm with the slightest of provocation. The wolves will come for the sheep (those that choose to believe they are protected by God, or that the Police will protect them). Maybe not today, and maybe not in their lifetime, but possibly in the lifetime of their children.

    Then there are what I deem "The Lineage". The Lineage has no known path, family tree, genetic make up, philosophical leaning, or really anything in common.

    A father doesn't pass it to a son, or a mother to a daughter. The Lineage can skip an entire families' generation, or it can affect everyone under one roof.

    Examples of a member of The Lineage can be found here at this forum. I could name them, but I would prefer they out themselves if they so choose.

    Members of The Lineage share a common trait in that they truly believe in a skillset that they have & feel a responsibility because of it. They have developed and honed this skillset, with reading and practice and application and daily situational awareness questions that they ask themselves, usually with their own embarassment and humility about such an "absurd" idea.

    "What if?". How crazy is that in this day and age? I'm a paranoid moron for thinking something like that might happen here. :eek:

    Members of the Lineage like these people truly believe that they have a responsibility to look out for the sheep. To be there IF a wolf, or a set of wolves decides today is the day. They believe that if something were to happen, and they did not lift a hand to stop it, they could not live with themselves and the consequences of their inaction.

    Back in the day they carried a sword. In Asia, they studied martial arts in secret when law prohibited weapons. Now? They have a permit and they have a weapon they carry just like everyone else long the line, this one just happens to be a modern firearm.

    Make no mistake. They don't believe they were sent by God. At least I have yet to meet one who felt s/he was.

    But I have a sneaky suspicion that if there is an Ultimate Judge at the end of the day, this character trait probably won't be in the negative category. :cool:

    JD
     
  11. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    A brief note in the interest of accuracy. The bible has been translated thru a number of languages as it has come down over the years. In some cases, the meaning of a word AT THE TIME IT WAS TRANSLATED has now changed. In the trip through Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and Middle English, "Kill" is one of those words. At the time of Prince James, the word "kill" meant "murder". You "slew" an opponent in battle, or an animal harvested for food, or an attacker. The commandment is properly translated as "You will not commit murder." But an armed robber would "kill" a victim. In the same book of the Bible (Exodus) where the Commandments are given, so is the Mosaic Code of law- several of which carried the death penalty.

    Sorry- I have waited YEARS to use some of the college courses you take in a Benedictine school! :p
     
  12. corrinavatan

    corrinavatan New Member

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    So, to be clear, in old, pre-James versions of the Bible, they used a different word for "Thou shalt not kill" that meant the most appropriate translation was "murder", and that this word was the same vein as the word used earlier in the Bible about how Cain "slew" Able, but unlike the word used to describe how adulterers should be beaten to death with rocks? (Or was that murderers?)

    Forgive me if I messed that part up. I believe in Christianity, not the Bible.
     
  13. steve666

    steve666 New Member

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    You need to tell your grandfather the story of the little old lady who was caught in a flood.
    As the water started to rise a bus came around and offered to take her to safety. She refused, stating that the Lord would save her. The water continued to get deeper and she was on the roof. Along came a boat with folks who offered to take her to high ground but she again refused, saying that she relied on God. Then the water was lapping at her heels as she clung to the very top of the chimney. A helicopter comes and offers to rescue her but she refuses reiterating her faith in the Almighty. She drowns. As she is brought before God she complains that he failed her in her hour of need. He replies, "I sent you a bus, a boat, and a helicopter. What more do you want????"
    The moral of this story: Don't expect God to do ALL of the work. He'll give you the means, but you have to help yourself!!!
     
  14. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    The story of Exodus is, of course, FAR older than the King James version of the Bible- it is told in the Dead Sea Scrolls- and was not in English. The original word was not kill, but (bear with me, having to do phonetic 'cause I can't type Hebrew) Cha-kah, which literally means murder. Look through the assorted translations here, and see how many CURRENT English usage translations use "murder" rather than kill. Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder. I would also invite your attention on that same page to Clarke's Commentaries on the Bible- especially item #5.

    "Murder of every kind, which includes:
    5. All want of charity to the helpless and distressed; for he who has it in his power to save the life of another by a timely application of succor, food, raiment, etc., and does not do it, and the life of the person either falls or is abridged on this account, is in the sight of God a murderer. He who neglects to save life is, according to an incontrovertible maxim in law, the same as he who takes it away."

    As I said earlier- this is an argument that will be governed by emotion, not logic- but does not a police officer or soldier have the potential to have to take a life to protect the life of an innocent person?

    Different folks WILL have different views. I know what mine are.
     
  15. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

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    c3 you are correct. The king james version is just not that good. There are other words that are not correctly translated. Of course then we have all the misquotes too. My favorite being "Money is the root of all evil" actually it says " The love of money is the root of all evil". To many to go into. Being that according to Christianity the Bible is the word of God I don't see how one can be a Christian and not believe what the Bible says. I can see having issues with organized religion and some of the interpretations, which by the way should not be confused with translations.
     
  16. clip11

    clip11 New Member

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    At least my granddad is willing to listen to my side of the argument. My grandmother is a whole different story. She just says "You don't need a gun!" and thats the end of story. So with her, I just avoid the subject because she won't listen to logic, in fact, if I use logic towards the situation, she's likely to get upset. Here's a few instances:

    1. I was at their house one day and a news story came on. In Detroit, right down the street from their house, a man was carjacked. The carjacker however, used a phony gun. The victim had a real gun. He fired shots at the carjacker. Unfortunately, none of the shots hit the carjacker, instead they went into a house and killed a 69 year old great grandmother. I was in the kitchen and she was in the den with the tv on. As soon as the story came on, she called me into the den and showed me the story. I guess it was supossed to be proof as to why I shouldn't have a gun.

    I agreed that what happened in that case was unfortunate and I was sorry for the lady and her family. However, for starters, I can't let the actions of people I don't even know dictate what I do. I also said you wouldn't apply that logic towards automobiles. If a news story came on about a kid getting ran over by a car, she wouldn't tell me I should get rid of my car. She certainly wouldn't get rid of her car. Afterall, isn't the only way to be 100% certain you'll never hit and kill anyone with an automobile is not to own or drive one? She just called that "foolish talk" and got upset.

    2. Some weeks later, a story came on about a man who shot himself accidently with a gun. As soon as I went to the house, she wasted no time telling me about it. I didn't know all the details, but I told her i'd be willing to bet he wasn't handling the gun in a safe manner. He probably had a bullet in the chamber and was carrying the gun in his waistband like in the movies. The safe was to carry a gun with a chambered round is in a holster. I also said what about the millions of gun owners that DONT shoot themselves. You never see that on the news. Once again that was "foolish talk".

    I kind of suspect why she may feel that way. She's a strict holiness christian (Church of God in Christ). In the old days of COGIC, they were taught not to carry or own weapons of any kind (guns, knives, etc), the reasoning behind it was that doing so indicated a lack of faith in God to protect you, and therefore was a sin. I don't think they teach that anymore but i do know they did at one time and some of the older folks in that denomination still hold to that.

    I do know that when COGIC holds their national meetings, they have armed security to guard the offerings. It is also no secret that many of the bishops in COGIC have armed securtiy. My granddads bishop has an armed guard. I asked him about that and really couldn't get a response.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2011
  17. corrinavatan

    corrinavatan New Member

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    Unfortunately, that isn't a "gun thing". That's more of a "I've made up my mind about something and that's the way it is" thing.

    I have a grandparent who thinks that the fact that we own a 65" television as a sign that all we do is sit around all day and watch it, and that we're rotting our brains. Come to find out, she watches TV for more hours a day than we do (being retired will do that).

    No matter where you go, you're always going to find people who don't want to have a rational discussion about something. Lot easier to just make a black and white choice than to mull something over.
     
  18. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Yeah- Glock owners! :p
     
  19. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Umm...ok, I will make my expressed opinion on this matter very short, well somewhat short, and to the point. Don't hate me because I use logic, science, facts and rational cognitive thought, to form my own opinion. YMMV

    1. The Bible is full of killing for a book that teaches to turn the other cheek.

    2. Before the Bible and to present day, there has been a whole lot of killing going on daily and a majority of them killed, have been believers of some form of God, in the name of God or the name of some similar supreme being, and in many different faiths.

    3. God, or any other supreme faith figure for that matter, is not going to save anyone, no matter how much faith and prayer that is bestowed upon him. The faith and prayer is for one's self pacification and fate will decide the outcome. God's plans for you, good or bad, supposedly starts working after you leave this earth...but no one has proof of that either.

    4. There will always be individuals that pray upon the weak, steal from the rich, and in cold blood, kill without remorse or reason. Their fate will eventually be in somebodies hands, sooner or later. We are all just evolved animals with superior skills and learning abilities and the ability of cognitive thinking, with the same dark killing instincts as any top predator or wild animal...we just have structured societies and applied laws that govern, maintain and detour those primal instincts in most, but most definitely, not all.

    5. And finally, carrying a weapon, concealed or open, only evens the playing field, so to speak. There is nothing that requires one to shoot dead an individual when you finally draw it in defense, there are so many other areas of the human body that a bullet would FUBAR and cause a lifetime of disability, pain and suffering to that individual to live with the rest of their life and suffer the resulting consequences of their aggressive actions. But, there will always be those certain dangerous individuals in society out there, who are too dangerous and lawless, that do indeed, need killing.
     
  20. 7point62

    7point62 Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    amen...and he who transgresses against me shall be chastised by fire. I shall read him from the Book and smite him down with 230gr FMJ 45 ACP.