Why Glock and Why a 9mm

Discussion in 'Glock Forum' started by indyfan, Nov 12, 2010.

  1. indyfan

    indyfan New Member

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  2. Neophyte1

    Neophyte1 New Member

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    Good Read

    Sir; a very good read :) Thanks for sharing :)
     

  3. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

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    Thanks for posting that. I agree.
     
  4. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    im not sure i agree with some of the reasoning. the point about caliber not mattering. by what criteria were the survive no survive measured or was it just the authers interpretation?? if his point is true why not a .380 or 38spl both are far far easier shooting rounds and same diameter as 9mm?? why bother with the expense and risk of jams and under penetration of hollow points when diameter doesnt mean anything?? a lot of the logic really doesnt carry.

    as far as carrying and shooting something that works for you is a real good idea. i agree with that, but i disagree with the logic in how he got there.

    from my experience the weight of the bullet is pretty important. the bigger the diameter and the more the bullet weighs determines the effectiveness of the round.

    my 458 winmag using 350 grain bullets at 1900-2000fps it isnt nearly as effective hunting as a 520 grain bullet at the same fps. only thing different is the weight. the effects on the heart lung area of hogs and deer are vastly different. i would assume this is the same correlation as pistol bullet weight only on a MUCH smaller scale.

    shooting paper all day and your gonna want a 22 instead of a 9mm or 45acp. by the logic of the linked poster it would be better to use a 22lr since its really easier to be more accurate with a 22 than a 9mm and after all your just punching holes not tearing sht up.

    personally ill go with the 45acp every slight advantage i can get may mean the diff tween life and death. i do know for a fact that critters bleed faster with a 45 cal hole than they do with a 30 cal hole when hunting.

    if i can only land one round and hide i want the hole to be as big as possible.
     
  5. freefall

    freefall New Member

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    Bigger hole =more blood loss. You betcha. However, I read a great article by Chuck Taylor in the new issue of Combat Handguns. About his 20+ year old Glock 17. He fired 10,000 rounds without cleaning before malfunction, and fired 277,000 rounds before a parts failure. Worth reading. I am not cheerleading, don't own a Glock. Shot one once, it was accurate but I just don't care for the feel of them. Too bad, I'd like to have a 20, reasonably priced 10mm, but I just don't like it. Have to save my sheckels for a Colt or Kimber.:cool:
     
  6. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

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    The point of the article was that 9mm works, and that Glocks are simple and consistent to use.

    While a .45 is more effective than a 9mm, the placement of the hole is the important part. A .45 hole in the wrong place is not more effective than a 9mm hole in the right place. A 9mm hole through the center of the sternum is just as effective as a .45 hole.

    And the ability to put numerous 9mm holes into multiple targets is a big plus.
     
  7. Cory2

    Cory2 New Member

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    It depends on how wrong of a place. They key factor for me in any pistol caliber is stopping power. From my experience stopping power and hydrostatic shock and temporary and permant cavitation are very closely linked. As a .45 has a significantly largly hydrostatic shock diameter as well as temporary and permanant cavitation diameter, a .45 has much more stopping power than a 9mm. .45's also seem to experience over penetration less often as they travel at a lower speed and have a larger surface area than a 9mm... Which could be responsible for alot of the extra stopping power as more of the energy is directed into the target instead of at whatever is behind the target. For example: If i where to hit someone in the upper right side of their chest, in the meaty part above the right lung and just below the colar bone, it would still colapse their right lung and deal irreperable damage to their lower trachea and possbily a collapsed left lung (as well as many other damaged organs and neurological damages). To achieve these same results with a 9mm would require a nearly perfect shot just below the trachea and between both lungs... basicly in the middle of their sturnum.

    The primary reason for this is the effects of hydrostatic shock. Imagine a tidal wave traveling across a persons flesh and you have a good idea of what i am talking about. This "tidal wave" will massively damage any organ it reaches virtually destroying it. The .45 has a much higher balistic pressure wave (hydrostatic shock) than a 9mm does on average.

    When comparing the same type of ammunition (Cor-Bon JHP) for both the 9mm parabellum and the .45 acp. (BPW= balistic presure wave AIT= average incapacitation time)

    9mm
    energy ft/lb: 465
    penetration: 14.2 inches
    BPW: 626 psi
    permanant cavitation: 3.4 cubic inches
    AIT: 8.8 seconds

    .45
    energy ft/lb:544
    penetration: 11.3 inches
    BPW:920 psi
    permanant cavitation: 4.4 cubic inches
    AIT: 7.2 seconds

    We can see that the .45 does everything you want a round for self defence to do better than the 9mm does.

    I am not knocking the 9mm, as the lowered recoil does allow for faster follow up shots and it does allow for larger capacity magazines. However when comparing round for round, the .45 is hands down a far superior round. Also just to compare and maybe put a little knowledge into your mind here are the stats for a .40 cal (Cor-Bon JHP)

    .40
    energy ft/lb:507
    penetration: 9.8 inches
    BPW: 1384 psi
    permanant cavitation:2.4 cubic inches
    AIT: 5.9 seconds

    The major downside of the .40 is that it lacks very much permanant cavitation and therefore is not nearly as effective when impacting a limb as the 9mm and .45 are. But maybe if you cant decide between a 9mm and a .45 you should consider the .40 cal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
  8. sweeper22

    sweeper22 New Member

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    "Choose the platform and caliber best suits you based on comfort, ergonomics, personal preferences, and what you shoot with the best. Don't get married to a platform or caliber just because you preceive it's cool or because you have a lot of money invested in your firearm or equipment."

    Good little writeup. I don't own a Glock (prefer XD) and I have as many 45's as 9's...but valid points all around.

    Own whatever you want. Shoot whatever you want. But for carry, and to rely on for defense, favor the platform you've demonstrated high competence with.
     
  9. indyfan

    indyfan New Member

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    "I couldn't think of a single shooting where the person or animal was shot with a 9mm and lived, but would have died if the round would have been a .40S&W or a .45acp. And I could not think of a single shooting where a person or animal was shot with a .40S&W or a .45acp and died, but would have survived if the round would have been a 9mm."


    That's the smartest thing I've read in a while. Finally someone who understands that the .45 and .40 aren't magical one stop shot bullets. This guy knows his stuff.

    9mm is an effective self defense round. Nuff said.
     
  10. Cory2

    Cory2 New Member

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    No one has said the 9mm is not an effective self defence round. However as this man stated himself he thinks the wounds would have been no different. Science has shown otherwise. I will chose proven fact over 1 mans opinion every day.
     
  11. indyfan

    indyfan New Member

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    I've had numerous people tell me the 9mm isn't powerful enough. 9mm is a huge target for criticism. "Too weak" "I don't like to shoot twice" "Not enough stopping power"

    A bullet's a bullet. You think a bad guy is gonna care if a 147 grain bullet hits his chest instead of a 230 grain bullet?

    A Navy Seal once said "Being a 9mm people will say 'It's only a 9mm, it won't do anything.' But when I put two rounds through your heart and one through your head, you won't know the difference and neither will the enemy."
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
  12. Bello

    Bello New Member

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    About the 9mm round.

    This list shows you how effective the round is.

    Mcdonalds Massacre, San Isidro Ca.
    San Ysidro McDonald's massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    uzi 9mm, browning high power pistol= 22 dead


    Lubby's Cafeteria Massacre, Killee Tx.
    Luby's massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Glock 17, Ruger 89= 23 dead

    Columbine High School Shooting
    Columbine High School massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    hi point carbine 9mm, intratec 9mm= 13 dead

    Erfurt, Germany...Gutenberg-Gymnasium
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_massacre
    glock 17 9mm= 18 dead

    Virginia Tech massacre
    Virginia Tech massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    glock 19 9mm = 33 dead

    Law firm of Pettit and Martin massacre or the 101 california street shooting
    101 California Street shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    2 intratec's 9mm= 8 dead


    Long Island Railroad shooting
    Colin Ferguson (convict) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    ruger 89 9mm= 6 dead in 3 minutes

    And this was done by people who have never shot somebody before and, at sometimes, moving targets.
    I just wonder why people put so much brain as on what caliber and what gun,
    The way I see it....a foreign object hurting or wounding our biological system is gonna be deadly right at that moment or later.


    my 2 cents
    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  13. indyfan

    indyfan New Member

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    You know Bello, it seems like you posted that to make the 9mm seem like the preferred round of criminals and psychopaths...
     
  14. Gougeeye

    Gougeeye New Member

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    My Glock is a .40 and it's because a .40 punches harder than a 9mm. The ammo is readily available and the price of it doesn't keep me from practicing.
    My niece prefers her Springfield XD because the grip fits her hand better than a Glock.

    Carrying is what is important. A .22 auto in your pocket is way better than a .45 back home in the closet when you a confronted by the bad guys.
     
  15. Bello

    Bello New Member

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    No sir. I didnt ment that at all. I hope Im not been crude about it.
    What I was trying to present is the effectiveness of the round.

    This are tragic events and I acknowledge that. I just used them as examples where the 9mm is been used against human targets. The round is capable of stopping human targets. This is plain and simple, no sugar coated. The round works. The argument of "9mm sucks" and "45 is the best" etc gets old. That is why I chose the 40s&w. Right in the middle. I will buy 9mm conversion for my 2 g22.

    I hope I didnt disrepected anybody here. :) Using this more as a study on the 9mm round.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  16. M14sRock

    M14sRock New Member

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    You're still good with me Bello. Your examples were all of the nefarious type, but did show the overall effectiveness of 9mm. Visual aids are not always pleasant, and history is often painful.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  17. Bello

    Bello New Member

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    and gansters and military, freedom fighters, terrorist, even law enforcement in certain municipalities, lots of self defense civilian cases too. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  18. Gougeeye

    Gougeeye New Member

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    Your list leaves out the many government sponsored exterminations of millions where 9mm bullets served so well. But the purpose of lethal force in self defense is to disable quickly enough to prevent your own demise or protect someone else. Once the threat is neutralized the opponents death is unnecessary. This is what makes the .45 preferred by so many.
     
  19. BlueXJ

    BlueXJ New Member

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    I agree with the article 100% but as he says it is what you shoot best with and in my case it is the Glock but in 40S&W not 9MM.
     
  20. hnealg

    hnealg New Member

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    One point is that is in a critical shooting, the recommendation is to keep shooting until the threat ceases to be a threat. Shooting one shot may be enough, but shooting just once would be a foolish risk, it would be better to use too many rounds than not enough. Check on the training given to most all law enforcement personnel.

    It would be here that the 9mm would stand out--the lesser recoil means getting the gun back on target quicker which means more rounds on target quicker.

    I shoot both the 9 and the .45 and each has its good points and bad. But my choice of a primary carry weapon is the Glock 19 with +P+ ammo. I trust it for the simplicity of the Glock, adequate firepower, and I know I can put enough rounds in the needed spots quickly.