Why Folks Should Carry at Church

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by Gatoragn, Jul 12, 2020.

  1. Gatoragn

    Gatoragn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes it is being stereotypical, but looks an Antifa sympathizer, if not a card carrying member.

    https://www.fox13news.com/news/man-...ch-lights-it-on-fire-with-parishioners-inside

    OCALA, Fla. - Steven Anthony Shields,24, allegedly drove into the front doors of the Queen of Peace Catholic Church in Marion County Saturday morning, according to deputies.

    According to the Marion County Sheriff’s Office, after the crash, he got out of the vehicle, poured gasoline out into the foyer area and lit it on fire with parishioners inside. Deputies said he then left in the vehicle.

    Deputies said the parishioners were able to escape without injury and Marion County Fire Rescue personnel were able to quickly extinguish the fire.
     
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  2. Gatoragn

    Gatoragn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    At the least, all churches need a security team and plan.
     

  3. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

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    Good example of the idea that all it takes for a perpetrator to attempt a violent crime is: the desire to do so.

    Far better to be prepared to thwart such attempts, whatever they might be, than to have no means of doing so.

    Whether in a restaurant, at a church service, on the sidewalk in your own neighborhood, at a shopping mall, sitting at home, gardening in the back yard ... wherever.

    Luckily, these people at the service had the ability to quickly deal with the problem.

    Easily could have been someone armed with a couple of rifles or shotguns who wasn't interested in a hit-and-run type attempt at something. Very lucky indeed.

    Time to re-think the ability of the building's structure and entry areas to withstand intrusions.
     
  4. Gatoragn

    Gatoragn Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Bollards in front of doors would help.
     
  5. tac foley

    tac foley Well-Known Member

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    Bollards and a M60 would help even more....................... :)
     
  6. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    A buddy of mine is Senior Deacon at his church. He is nearly as good a shot as I am and he is always armed at church (security being his job as a Deacon)
    And there is more than 1 Deacon.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2020
  7. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    Our church is closed and having drive in services at present. Open church being the victim of the virus scare.

    Before it closed we had a 6 man armed security team.

    The drive in services usually have one or two . Sometimes 3
    But they are more heavily armed with Ar 15s in their vehicles with them along with handguns and parked in strategic places.

    The crazy that did this should have been and in alot of churches would have been ventilated as he exited the vehicle with obvious ill intent.
     
  8. 7.62 Man

    7.62 Man Well-Known Member

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    You put fire extinguishers close to places that could have fires. So why not have guns in church. It’s been proven that guns are needed there.
     
  9. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

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    That's certainly a good start.
     
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  10. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

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    What amazes me, about many different types of building structures, is how pitifully easy it is to a) enter from many different areas, b) to enter without much resistance or challenge, and c) to corral everyone who's inside.

    The average church isn't much different.

    Nor is the average older school facility. Let alone restaurants and shops fully intended to allow everyone and anyone entry. Tough to "harden" those when not designed that way. Though if designed with controlled entry, strong points within, ease of barring or barricading zones, etc., it'd go a long way toward disallowing such unencumbered entry ... with accelerants/fire, with arms, etc. Most structures simply haven't been designed with any consideration to such things.
     
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  11. TelstaR

    TelstaR Active Member

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    sure.. a plan developed by trained and experienced people and carried out by trained and experienced people. I have seen a lot of good ole boys carrying guns in churches, I have not seen much in the way of a competent security apparatus.
     
  12. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Might be time to bring back the Knights Templar as a fighting Christian force.
     
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  13. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    And you would know how the good old boys were trained or not how??? At how many churches do you inspect the security?
    You go around to churches asking the good old boys what training they had.?

    You would know how competent a churches security setup is exactly how?

    You do realize that unlike most other locations a well set up, effective security force in a church ,the idea is for you NOT to know it's there unless you become the subject of its attention.
     
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  14. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to figure out why you wouldn't carry a gun in church.
     
  15. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

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    Several groups of thinking on the subject none of which I personally agree with .

    1.. Like Telastar some churchd think they need the secret service to lay out their security plan, but cant afford that and think anything else is baaaaad.

    2. Other congregations think having a security team will scare away newcomers .

    3 still other congregations believe they should trust in God to protect them. Thar having a security team shows lack of faith.
    4. Liberal anti gun pastors or BOD.

    Undoubtedly there are a few more but those are the main ones I've heard of.
     
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  16. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    Well, if your church practices baptism by immersion, might need the polymer frame that day.....

    My range has 3 churches that the members of their security teams come over for practice- combat shooting. Shooting with movement, reloads, firing from barricades. They are not the average Saturday plinker.
     
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  17. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

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    It's funny how motivated a person can be, if one's back is to the wall.

    Isn't exactly "rocket science" to have a basic and more-or-less effective plan of defense for a simple space. Of course, one's generally left with the design features of the building, the demeanor of the group they're trying to protect, and other aspects they can't really change. Still, it's not much different than thinking through defense of the home. Get with a couple of decent trainers who've skill in these areas, work out an approach with a skilled sheriff or designee, then work on skills and teamwork. Won't be Fort Knox, no, but it's vastly better than zilch, and not out of the reach of most folks.
     
  18. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Well-Known Member

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    I've said this before but to paraphrase Tamara Keel, I don't make a specific point carrying a gun at church. I make a specific point of not leaving my home unarmed and church is just a place I happen to go.

    As for the topic of church security that's as broad as however many churches are out there.

    New Life Church in Colorado Springs has approximately 25,000 members split up between I think four services on two campuses on Saturday and Sunday.

    This is the same New Life Church that had an active shooter incident in December of 2007. The Church actually pays the city to post off duty cops in their parking lot for traffic control and security during services. They also have a very well trained volunteer security team. I don't know all the details but I think at least half of their security team are either active or retired cops. I mean they have quite a pool to draw from and they probably don't have "a bunch of Bubbas toting guns" on their security team.

    I also know of two churches in town that hire contract security for their security team. That way they know they're going to have X number of guards for every service and they have guards on site during the week and the security provider incurs all liability. I think if I was ever put in charge building a church security team that's probably how I would do it.

    Having a volunteer security team is kind of a mixed bag. I have attended three churches that have straight volunteer security.

    The first simply asked a few parishioners who were cops anyway if they would carry during service. Which, since they were cops, they were probably doing already.

    The second was completely disorganized. Whenever there was a special event the head usher just asked some of his buddies to carry in that service. So far as I know they never trained with each other and I'm not even sure they knew who each other were. I was told there were also two or three parishioners who simply took it upon themselves to post themselves in the hallway and "watch over the flock" during services. When my wife and I attended that church we always sat in the same place. On the far edge of the congregation right next to the emergency exit.

    The third is the church I attend now. Everybody that's a volunteer at the church who works with "at-risk people" which would be children elderly or disabled is required to have a background check performed by the police department. It's the same background check that I have to go through to get my security license. They also require 6 months regular attendance before you can volunteer for any ministry. So, they have an idea of who you are.

    The problem is that volunteer security guards are volunteers. Some take it seriously some don't. If something comes up and they can't make it to the service they're scheduled to work at they just don't come and there's really nothing the church can do about it except take them off the schedule permanently.

    I remember one night I was driving around the parking lot and I saw the security guard who was supposed to be monitoring the second floor of the building patrolling the parking lot on foot. When I pulled up to ask him what was up he told me that The Spirit had moved him to walk the parking lot and if I had a problem with that tough. What was I supposed to do with that? I decided it was neither my my circus nor my monkeys and continued my rounds. Experiences like that are why I would just hire contract guards if it was my call.

    ETA in the intrest of full disclosure I resigned from my church's security team about 3 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
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  19. AgedWarrior

    AgedWarrior Well-Known Member

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    Some thoughts about church security from my perspective as senior pastor. First of all, faith does not mean sit and do nothing because you wait upon the Lord; faith responds to evil with confidence that the Lord is with us always (Josh 1:5, Heb 13:5).
    Second, always control the entry points so that you can force an adversary to approach at your strongest point.
    Finally, apply the PRINCIPLES of Nehemiah 4:10-21, which you will note has confidence that God is with you.
    We have a flexible plan, and sufficient organization to make it work. We involve the whole congregation in varying degrees and have no hired help. We employ video surveillance to the degree that it provides a certain amount of help, but we ask all to be observant and to report unusual right away. Yes, we are armed. Not all of us, but enough.

    I am not trying to say we are the best nor criticize others efforts; one size does not fit all. Just sharing what is working for us...
     
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  20. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
    Some have a tendency to denigrate others efforts.

    Not every congregation can (or should!) afford a professional armed security team.
    As Americans we can take care of business ourselves as many instances have shown.
     
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