Why double tap?

Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by tsully85, Nov 28, 2012.

  1. tsully85

    tsully85 New Member

    62
    0
    0
    Apparently this is exactly why. Takes the bullet 50 yards or so to get its act together. Thought it was an interesting read, figured I'd share it. Maybe I'm the last person here to read it? Maybe not.

    http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf
     
  2. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    19
    38
    just keep landing hits till the goblin stops doing what its doing. dont need fancy stuff for that. plain old lead bullets been getting it done since guns were invented. when the copper jacket was added all of a sudden it got mystical :rolleyes:
     

  3. tsully85

    tsully85 New Member

    62
    0
    0
    ^ well yeah. Because the bullet's oscillating most will hit with a substantial angle of attack and therefore fragment, but some will hit with very little AoA and will not frag. So I'd say if you need to make sure a 5.56/.223 performs the way it should up close (fragments), it's probably a good idea to use at least two. But yeah.
     
  4. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

    7
    2
    0
    comparing FMJ ammo to JHP ammo is like comparing apples to oranges. the military is limited to using FMJ ammo and civilians are not. just use what works for your needs the best.
     
  5. tsully85

    tsully85 New Member

    62
    0
    0
    According to this study/report there is actually very little effective difference between M855 and civilian ammo up close. Long distance is a different story, but that's one of the reasons I thought this was interesting.
     
  6. Steel_Talon

    Steel_Talon New Member

    1,766
    0
    0
    I prefer "tap tap splat" :p;)
     
  7. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

    16,741
    1,070
    113
    Very interesting reading. First, it explodes the tired old myth of "stopping power." I wish the duphuses that write for the gun rags would read this.

    Second, it re-iterates what most of us already knew about caliber. At CQB ranges, the 7.62 has no advantage over the 5.56. This is obvious to most folks, but some just refuse to accept it.

    My ARs are loaded with M193 ball ammo. This study reinforces my belief that I can pay more, but can't find better ammo.:p
     
  8. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

    7,510
    2
    0
    WTF is wrong with a double tap, another 45 cents well spent? I agree with the boots on the ground, dead is better than kinda dead! Tap, tap, Tap, tap tap tap until they tap out!
     
  9. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

    6,165
    3
    0
    One shot...One Kill...was always a nice mantra durring my term of Infantry Service...BUT...we were also told to DOUBLE TAP anything we could stil see after an initial hit.

    Hell, they even told us to Double Tap downed enemy, moving or not, before we walked past them to prevent a "playing opossum" attack and to stay out of trouble with the Geneva Convention because if a wounded enemy let's you pass peacefully he is surrendering and must now be taken prisoner and rendered medical aid.

    Wonder how Manu tax dollars were spent to prove something every grunt already knew? :rolleyes:

    Interesting read though.

    Tack
     
  10. orangello

    orangello New Member

    19,156
    0
    0
    Because you are shooting a .22 at something larger than a tree rat?
    ;)
     
  11. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

    16,741
    1,070
    113

    I watched an interesting program on the military channel recently.

    The program was about the U.S. Army sniper school. One of the lead instructors, a SFC, IIRC., stated that "one shot, one kill" was the motto, of course, but in the field, the actual kill usually came on the second, or often the third shot. Sometimes the fourth.

    This trooper had several sniper deployments under his belt, as well as several years instructing at the sniper school.
     
  12. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

    6,165
    3
    0
    I believe it was the late Col. Jeff Cooper who said..."Don't just shoot him until YOU think he's done...shoot him until HE thinks HE's done!"

    ...or something like that.

    Tack
     
  13. SSGSF

    SSGSF New Member

    1,160
    2
    0
    Double tap hell, you put two in the chest and one in the head. That make sure they ain't playing possum.
     
  14. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,510
    800
    113
    Why double tap? Cause if it was worth shooting it, it was worth shooting it twice.

    Actually, MY motto is "Shoot until it catches fire or changes shape."

    :p
     
  15. Mosin

    Mosin Well-Known Member

    7,477
    400
    83
    The target, or your handguards?! :EEK:
     
  16. oldpapps

    oldpapps New Member

    173
    0
    0
    "Why double tap?"

    Interesting read but the fact is, it doesn't say anything new. I have always been trained to 'eliminate/stop' all threats.

    I remember being told by a range officer at the Patrol Academy some thing like this: Keep you revolver in the holster, don't go waving it around. Before you remove it from the holster, you must have legal grounds. If you have legal ground to pull the revolver, you have legal grounds to fire, if you have legal ground to fire, you have legal ground to empty the revolver. Fire only as a last resort but don't die debating it.
    Revolvers are no longer the weapon of choice (finally) but the concept remains valid. Back when I was a range office, I promoted the view of shooting until the 'suspect' is no longer a threat. In the late 70's the 'sociologists' started coming threw the range and they wanted to cure the poor individual. My thoughts were, yea right, your ghost can reason with them after your dead.

    I 'double tap' or more, just because of habit with any auto loader, pistol and rifle. 39 years of training is hard to put a side.
     
  17. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

    16,741
    1,070
    113
    Same thing basically that I was taught, and that i taiught others as an instructor.

    If you do not have both legal and moral justification to kill, you don't have justification to shoot. If you do have justification, you continue shooting until the threat is neutralized.
     
  18. 2ndfan

    2ndfan New Member

    41
    0
    0
    I am responding to this with the experience of almost 30 years as a LEO in Cal. If you think you have the authority to shoot any time you have the legal grounds to pull the pistol, you are very wrong, and advise like this will get you sent to prison in Cal under many circumstances.

    As an example, if you are confronted with a bad guy approaching with a knife extended, 40 feet away from, you may legally draw your weapon to defend yourself. If the suspect immediately lays on the ground crying, you ARE NOT justified in shooting that person. This of course is an extreme example, but the legal premise holds true. I legally pulled my weapon from it's holster hundreds of times when I was not justified, legally or morally, in shooting with the info I had at the time!

    This training you allude to may have been the case at one time, but I started my PO training in 1978, and what I have expressed here has not changed significantly since then in Cal.

    In addition, if you ever do shoot someone, which I hope you never have to do, you were shooting to stop the threat, NOT TO KILL! This is what you better say to the cops and the judge!
     
  19. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

    9,744
    508
    113
    I like the 9 tap from a shotgun at close range.
     
  20. oldpapps

    oldpapps New Member

    173
    0
    0
    2ndfan,

    I'm not about to disagree. But the Missouri Laws at the time were that way. I remember Sheriff Mickey Owen saying one time that in Greene County, you don't have to prove your not guilty of murder, all you have to do is prove the SOB needed to be killed. Google him, he was a nice man. Never got to work for him, it would have been interesting, him and Buff Lamb :D
    After I left the COP shop, I worked for and retired from an agency that demanded the use of deadly force for a list of property crimes! Look this one up under 10CFR and the Atomic Energy Act of 1952 as amended. Oh, their standard was two center mass and one to the head. I ended up with a glock :(
    Still don't like them, the glocks.

    EDIT BY MOD- Papps-play nice now. C3
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2012