Why do you want penetration?

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by Cory2, May 23, 2011.

  1. Cory2

    Cory2 New Member

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    Honestly, I don't understand why a round having more penetration is a good thing. As long as a round can get through clothing plus 6-8 inches of flesh it seems like that would be more than sufficient for self defence purposes.

    Usually when I see this brought up, it is when people are comparing the .45acp to the 9mm, and the 9mm people say the 9mm has more penetration... Why do you want more penetration than a .45? The .45 has plenty enough to do the trick and seems like any more is just risking over-penetration and potential collateral damage. I always thought that the ideal round would expend all of its energy inside of the target, if you have a round with 13 inches of penetration (i.e. a 9mm) than you arent going to succeed in that endeavor. I have a 43inch chest and its only ~11 inches deep, so 13 inches=overpenetration. Or is there something I am overlooking in this?

    Also, I don't want this to become some debate about which round is better than another, Lets keep it on terminal ballistics please :)
     
  2. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Shot placement, as well as penetration. :cool:

    And..."That's what she said!" ;)
     

  3. Jesse17

    Jesse17 New Member

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    I'm glad someone said it. :D:eek:
     
  4. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    my opinion:

    you want enough juice in a bullet that if it hits a bone it goes through and out the otherside. bullets are more effective for personal defense when there are two holes to leak through. shot placement is primary but the reality of self defense allows little time for aiming at a target the size of a baseball (heart) protected by bone. the head is a very hard target and its a lot bigger than the heart and the head can be seen.

    so you want a bullet that goes all the way through to maximize your ability to end a self defense situation with your life intact.

    thats why i prefer 45acp 230grn bullets when i can in a handgun. not a lot of overpenetration has the beans to get out the otherside and even if it doesnt expand its still nearly hlf inch in diameter leaving two big holes.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  5. CHLChris

    CHLChris New Member

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    I, too, am a big .45acp guy, but penetration means more disturbed surface area in the wound channel out of which to bleed. People don't die of the gun shot, itself (unless to the brain stem), they usually die of the blood loss inducing shock. The more wound channel, the more blood loss quickly. A .22 will cause irreparable blood loss, but speed is of the essence when stopping a threat.

    Deeper is better. (Oh don't start...) And girth is even more desirable.
     
  6. AusLach

    AusLach New Member

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    Lemme just say this; anatomically speaking, the heart and aortic arch are NOT protected by bone. The brain and CNS are. And that in a SD situation, bullets are most effective when they break the CNS circuit, or drop blood pressure to critical levels instantly (with shots to the brainstem/spinal cord, heart/aortic arch respectively), so as Jack said, shot placement is the key.

    A little more penetration gives more flexibility and reliability when shot presentation is not optimal, eg. if the attacker is side-on. Because everyone should have enough practice so that when presentation is optimal, placement is perfect anyway :cool:
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2011
  7. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Do not assume that you and an assailant will be facing each other squarely, on the same level. You MAY be lying on the ground, looking up at your assailant's side as he draws back his boot to continue kicking the snot out of you. Measure how much penetration you need then, and you see some different numbers.

    Yes, in that position you COULD shoot him in the crotch- but do you know how hard it is to hit TINY little targets when you're in a hurry? :p

    Me- I would like two holes. One to let air in, one to let blood out.
     
  8. CHLChris

    CHLChris New Member

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    Now that ^^^^^ suggests FMJ, which isn't a bad choice in some situations. If SHTF, I would probably load up FMJ's. If just walking around town, it is JHP's for me, but penetration is EXTREMELY important if you are expecting trouble.

    If trouble's coming, though, I wouldn't have a handgun in my hands, though.
     
  9. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    at least I didn't have to take it there....because I wanted to.

    Why is penetration important....you've got to get to the boiler room to make things shut down. Penetration is needed but not all that is required.
     
  10. mesinge2

    mesinge2 New Member

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    That's why I like my 44 magnum. Hollow points with penetraition. Anything to post a picture of Bertha: p

    [​IMG]
     
  11. wmille01

    wmille01 New Member

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    Some heavy winter clothing maybe as much as 8 inches plus like they said ^^^^ they may not be standing square at you. If the round for some reason doesn't go straight through it will take longer for them to bleed out, as to a clean punch through will take less time for them to expire. Also one reason I carry a 357 mag.
     
  12. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    i dont feel underarmed carrying 230grn 45acp fmjs. its whats in the spare mags. the 1911 itself has the hp rounds. im a worrier and a worst caser. if im cornered and the sd turns into a holding action the badguy may be using cover. need the extra penetration to get the lead to the target.

    Auslach: i dont disagree but the odds of hitting such a tiny thing are smaller than landing a head shot. i want to maximize the rounds i get center mass

    i do have 380's and i do feel a bit underarmed with em but its better than a sharp stick.

    im just hoping wisconsin's ccw law when its signed has provisions for OC and CCW. right now we have constitutional carry but its based off the attorney general's interpretation of the wisconsin constitution and refusal to prosecute peeps. he wont be the AG forever
     
  13. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Jesus are we really going to go round and round with this discussion again?

    I grow tired of this Rube Goldberging. :(

    Let me ask you all this:

    How many rounds fired by police officers in shoot out conditions HIT their intended target??

    1 out of 4? Meaning a police officer under duress hits 25% of the time?

    2 out of 4? Meaning a police officer under duress hits 50% of the time?

    What about the ROUNDS THAT MISS?!?!?

    No one ever wonders about over-penetration or dynamic/systemic shock or incapacitating ability for the rounds.

    Why?!?!

    6 inches of penetration? 8 inches? 18 inches? If there is NO media between the barrel and where the round ends up, what about THOSE rounds???

    The only time this comes up is when someone is worried about shooting THROUGH some bad guy and somehow hitting the next Mother Teresa, killing her before she can change the world. :rolleyes:

    Let me paint you a little scenario.

    It's a nice sunny day. You decide to head off to the Home Depot to get some parts to fix those broken fence boards and some cleaner for the siding.

    Just so happens at that same exact moment the bank in the parking lot of the Home Depot is being robbed as the armored car pulled up to transfer funds.

    As the robbers in question have already started shooting it out with the guards, you feel it's your obligation as a Concealed Weapon Holder to interject yourself into the fray.

    Now -

    Option A) Everyone WITHOUT a weapon is lining up behind the bad guys, munching popcorn, watching the show and just waiting to catch an over-penetrating bullet??

    OR

    Option B) Everyone WITHOUT a weapon is ducking, covering, hiding and/or running for their lives??

    Which option do you REALLY think is more likely?? :rolleyes:

    Carry what you can shoot well. Don't worry about "over-penetration" as the odds you will encounter a need to draw, a need to shoot, a chance of striking AND a chance of over-penetration striking another target are so infinitesimally small that you would have a better chance of getting struck by lightning WHILE winning the lottery AND sitting a top a Unicorn.

    JD
     
  14. General_lee

    General_lee New Member

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    ^^^^This^^^^

    JD is a wise man. Well said, Sir.:cool:
     
  15. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    ^^^This concludes todays class unless there are any more questions^^^

    Thank's JD that was truly well expressed with the correct amount of sarcasim to make it funny.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  16. Cory2

    Cory2 New Member

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    I appreciate all of the imput, and the "they may not be facing you squarely" thing is the part i was overlooking. So that makes sense why more penetration would be good then. I was just curious as to the logic behind this.

    For the record I personally carry a 9mm with FMJ's but thats just because I practice with fmj's so i figure i should use what im best with and most comfortable with. I use a 9mm because the ammo is cheaper lol. If I had my pick of round (assuming it was in a concealabe firearm) it would probably be .45 acp or .44 magnum. But, then again, I do like the idea of having 18+rounds ready to rock.
     
  17. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    And as a happy medium and something I have done for a long time, is why I stagger load my carry weapon's magazines (usually a .45) with ball and HP rounds.

    Now school is out.
    :cool:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. ScottA

    ScottA FAA licensed bugsmasher Lifetime Supporter

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    Because all the stuff that makes you work is on the inside.
     
  19. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    That happen to me once. Dang unicorn ran off and got hit by an 18 wheeler and some guy took my winning ticket AND cut my unicorn's horn off while I was knocked out from the lighting.
     
  20. CHLChris

    CHLChris New Member

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    Did the lightning over-penetrate, though?