Which rifle will best satisfy my survival requirements. Or are my requirements crap?

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by package81, Jul 15, 2011.

  1. package81

    package81 New Member

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    I have been thinking about purchasing a survival rifle. I have a decent level amount of firearms knowledge but not enough to really know what would be the best choice. I also don't have alot of experience with firearms in the wilderness.

    Below are all the characteristics that I would like in my survival rifle. Please note that I realize that I might not be able to get all of these characteristics in one gun. If you think that 2 guns could satisfy these requirements and still be reasonable and fairly lightweight, then by all means.

    1. Capable of killing small and medium sized game.
    2. Can keep me alive in moderate attacks/shootouts against..... cannibles/zombies/predators/chinese. I realize that I would get my *** handed to me in a shootout against anybody with experience or better equipement. I just want enough firepower to defeat or deter a mild to moderate attack. I plan on hiding most of this time and minding my own business.
    3. Can carry at least 1000 rounds in my survival pack. Note: I am a large experienced hiker that can go 5-8 miles a day with a 90lb pack.
    4. Can carry all required maintenance tools/products to keep the gun running for at least 20 years in wilderness. ***** increadibly important to me *****
    5. If the action or other moving parts fail, I would like the gun to be able to still operate in single shot mode. i.e.... still be able to open the chamber and load manually and shoot single shots for hunting or defense. Basically, what kind of action fails the best...and doesn't leave the gun totally useless.
    6. Would like killing ability out to AT LEAST 100yards. For hunting and protection.
    7. Reasonably lightweight.

    So far I'm leaning towards getting an AR15 with stainless 18" barrel. I'm just not sure if that is a simple enough weapon to fit my low-maintenance qualification. Will the action fail gracefully in an AR? Or will it become a paperweight.

    I'm also leaning toward the Marlin Papoose 22lr in combination with an all stainless Ruger Single Six 7.5" barrel .357mag. Overall this is the lighter, cheaper option. The papoose will give me semi auto ability. What do you think is more likely to stand up to 20 years of low maintenance wilderness abuse. The AR or the "papoose with single six combo"? Or would a bolt action be better? I have heard that the milspec AR's are designed to never fail even with little maintenance and care. that makes me think that the AR is the smarter choice. Also the AR gives me more firepower and range. I wonder if the papoose would fail gracefully so that I could still operate it in single shot mode? Also, if my single six failed somehow, I'm pretty sure it would become a paperweight. If the cylinder wouldn't rotate or something? Anyway, maybe I'm over analyzing the whole "failing gracefully" thing. But I have just always wondered if certain guns would fail better than others and still give you the option for single shot. I suppose there is no gun that is immune to becomming a paper weight eventually. I know there are alot of questions here. Sorry this is so long. Please give me any input you can think of. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  2. cddbrowns

    cddbrowns New Member

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    AR-15 would be my best bet.
     

  3. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    Dido, a 22 caliber..............the AR-15. ;)
     
  4. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    there are some vids of colt testing m4 carbines to failure. gas tube literaly explodes from excessive heat and the gun continues to fire manually cycling the bolt.

    ar15 can also fire 22lr with a simple drop in kit means you can take deer sized criiters with super light easy to carry ammo.

    do it all weapon i would go ar15. easy to get and carry spares highly reliable with easy lightweight spare parts. its actually very simple gun for a semi.

    unlike bolt guns Ar15 parts from other AR tend to be simple drop in.

    AR15 is a no brainer choice
     
  5. package81

    package81 New Member

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    canebrake..... what do you mean by "Dido, a 22 caliber".

    You think I should get an AR chambered for 22lr?
     
  6. package81

    package81 New Member

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    JonM.... now that's good info that me and my pulse can use!!!! thanks man!

    So the AR can essentially fire in "manual mode" if the gas tube fails? Could you always fire it in "manual mode" if you desire? I'm not very familiar with the AR action. It just seems like if you could fire it in manual mode all the time, you would prevent alot of the fouling from the gas tube and possibly prevent having to clean as often. that would be an incredibly valuable capability to only have to use the gas tube when you really needed to establish some firepower. I suppose that "manual mode" doesn't really work like I'm imagining though. it doesn't necessarily cause the gas tube to not be used?... you would only ever use it if the action failed to properly put another round in the chamber?......it's simply just to get the next bullet in the chamber and the firing pin back in case the recoil fails to do so?......

    Could you use manual mode if other parts of the action fail? Just how many parts have to fail in order for the gun to become useless? just curious.

    I wonder which parts would be the best to carry spares for? which parts are most likely to fail under low maintenance?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  7. Rex in OTZ

    Rex in OTZ Well-Known Member

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    one of two things

    when it come down to makeing a choice you have one of two choices the real hunting gun you will use and the plinko matic fun gun.

    when the chips are down a single round of scoped .243 winchester is going to do the job of 4-5 rounds of .223rem, its going to do it further and with more authority than the little black gun that poops in its own action.
    hunters in my parts refuse to carry them as a wolf hunting gun because the condensation freezing up the gun rendering it unuseable during a hunt.

    what it all boils down to in the end is your hunting and will be needing a hunting gun that works every time. its like takeing a trim hammer to frame a house, use the correct tool for the job.
    the .223 is a varmit round, thats what it was initally designed to be and do till the military got ahold of it and perverted its use and has been wounding people ever since and not efficently at doing that either.
     
  8. estrack2

    estrack2 New Member

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    Im planning using my AR-15 when the zombies arrive. 223 ammo is easy to find. I dnno about those other uses, but this is my zombie gun. (iron sight 30 rd mags.
     
  9. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Active Member

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    It all comes down to Shot Placement.No matter whether your using a 22lr or a 500 NE.
    If you don't shoot a vital area,no matter how big a bullet you use.The animal will not drop in it's tracks,it will run off and die.
     
  10. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I have an old Marlin model 60 that is very similar to the Papoose, just doesn't break down for carry; i like it and think it would be a good game getter for anything up to rabbitses. I also have a Ruger GP100, 6" barrel that could be used for larger game at close range.

    If you are more worried about defense than hunting, maybe an SKS wouldn't be the worst idea. It and its ammo are heavier than the Papoose by a good bit, but it is VERY simple in operation and easy to maintain. .22LR ammo will surely be available, but i think there will be some 7.62x39mm for the SKS also.

    I have personally wondered about setting up a cache of ammo at a secondary location rather than trying to carry it all, should i have to bail.
     
  11. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    if you wanna fire manual mode just take the gas tube out and plug the gas tube with a plug from spike's tactical.

    a chrome bolt carrier group is a better option tho. just need a rag and readily available automotive oil if no gun oil is available. chrome lined bore and chamber would be ideal for survival mode. makes for a very very reliable durable multitasking rifle.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  12. package81

    package81 New Member

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    Rex_in_OTZ........ thanks for you input, but I think I might disagree slightly. that is good info about the condensation. Can anybody else please verify that condensation will cause the AR to fail? I live in a very dry environment with little to no condensation so hopefully that wouldn't affect me. Does that just cause the AR to not fire temporarily? or does it cause the gun to fail permanently? wouldn't that be one of those failures that could be dealt with by manually cycling the bolt? give me more details about this condensation failure please.....

    I considered the .243win but ultimately decided it was too big and heavy? I'm already stretching it by going with the .223. I'm really trying to choose a rifle for the situation where I have to leave into the wilderness and hide and never show my face to civilization again. I really don't want to have to search for more ammo either. I need to be able to carry at least 1000 rounds. Preferably 1500. I'm not really a believer in the whole "large caliber makes me a larger man" idea. I'm pretty sure that that "little black gun that poops in it's own action" would make even the toughest man cry for his mommy (including you). And if you don't think so, then you are delusional about your manhood. I don't beleive guns make men tough, and definitely not the size of the gun or caliber.
     
  13. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    I would rethink the .22 rifle, .357 handgun. I would rather a bolt action rifle in .308 and a .22 revolver. Semi auto rifle, an AR for 20 years, I would not bet my life on it. If I was bringing a rifle that was semi auto, an AK would be a better choice as would an SKS. Even the thought of a pistol and rifle in the same caliber is very appealing.
     
  14. Cory2

    Cory2 New Member

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    Interesting. I would have said ak-47... or better yet, and ak-74 (the ammo is lighter). They are very reliable, and much more accurate than people give them credit for. Sure you can build ar-15s that can shoot the eyebrow off of a gnat from 700 yards, but that gun will not be a good survival weapon. Weight alone disqualifies it.
     
  15. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    guided hunters going from the lodge to cold the difference in metal temp causes water to condense on and surface. i find it a false issue. ive used my AR and issue M16 in some of the wettest/nasty places (Thailand Hawaii Korea Texas Wisconsin) never had condensation freeze my Ar15 in wisconsin winters going from warm to cold.

    my opinion its just a wives tail to denegrate a fine rifle type thats quickly supplanting bolt guns.

    failures in reliability in any weapon system is almost always directly related to lack of proper user maintence. doesnt matter if its a slingshot or 16" naval cannon.
     
  16. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    OK, you choose a AR in .223, I choose a bolt gun in .308, 7.62x54r, 6.5x55... You are not far from the mountians. In 1.5 hours you could be deep in and on the edge of the rocky mountian national forest. Most of the bigger game animals will only be injured badly by your AR and 1 shot. With a larger caliber, they are going down. Can you say food for a week! Not to mention hides for clothing and bone/antlers for tools. Can the action on an AR freeze? Oh yes. So can a bolt gun.
     
  17. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    Light weight AR-15
    Easy to use and take care AR-15
    Light weight for amount of ammo AR-15
    Small to medium sized game AR-15
    Looks to me that an ARis going to be a great rifle for you.

    As far as the AR not killing a deer that is complete and pure BS. It an ar in 556 can kill drugged up muslims it will kill a stinking deer. Good lord "POOPS in its OWN ACTION". WOW... I had 60 30rd mags at my foxhole and I fired every last round as fast as I could hit the bang switch. The barrel was glowing a bright orange the gas tube was white hot the hand guards were starting to smoke and it still kept banging out the rounds and accurately too. If you are going to be using an AR in extremely cold weather get the right lube and use it for it and it will run like a champ.

    I have shot an M-16 from -20 to 120* in snow, rain, mud, hail, and sand. If you know how to take care of your weapon it will run for ever.

    The AR I have now out shoots my bolt gun in the same caliber.

    Plus if you want a little more umph fine get yourself an upper in 6.8 spec to use of deer sized game.

    For me I want an upper in 6.8, 6.5, 556, and 22lr. With just one lower you have 4 different guns for anything from Squirrels to Deer sized game.

    One guy I hunt ground hogs with uses a 243. It doesn't do half the damage My 223 does on a ground hog. I have kills out to 400 yards with my AR on a ground hog. I shoot 60gr V-Max and at 400 it will spill the guts out the back side for 3 or 4 feet. At 75 my 223 remmy 700 using a 50gr V-Max shot the guts out the back side of a ground hog almost 10'.

    In normal everyday life a 223 is not what I would use for deer sized game. But, in a SHTF, EOTWAWKI (End of the world as we know it) I would have no problem use a 223 on anything up to Elk.
     
  18. package81

    package81 New Member

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    deleted because of duplication.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  19. package81

    package81 New Member

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    reply to cory2

    cory2 just said that the weight of an AR disqualifies it as a survival weapon.... and suggests the AK47? I thought that the AK47 was heavier than the AR? isn't the ammo heavier too?

    AR is much better for weight right?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  20. Dragonheart

    Dragonheart New Member

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    My personal choice is the AR-15.