which is more important........

Discussion in 'Semi-Auto Handguns' started by GunRunner, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. GunRunner

    GunRunner New Member

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    Ok I was reading a post that was comparing 9mm 357, 38. The jist was that the 357 was better because essentially they are the same size bullet, the 357 has greater muzzle velocity so it causes more damage.

    My question is which more important the size of the bullet or the speed in which it travels? Does a slow heavy round say 230gr fmj .45cal that travels at 750-850 fps going to do less or more damage than say a 68gr .45 cal that travels at 1800 fps? Which is the most important, size, weight, or speed?
     
  2. marc29th

    marc29th New Member

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    There is probably a mathematical formula that factors all 3 variables to come up with the perfect round.
     

  3. USEBOTHHANDS

    USEBOTHHANDS New Member

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    F = m x a

    Force = mass x acceleration

    Force in newtons or ft-lbs
    mass in kilograms
    acceleration in m/(s²)

    google Newton's 2nd Law for a more detailed explanation of physics of accelerated objects
     
  4. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    It is actually a phenomenon called a temporary wound channel- the hole that is made in you opponent is larger than the diameter of the bullet. Bigger the TWC, more damage to opponent.

    The bullet MUST penetrate deep enough that the TWC reaches vital parts of the body (think in 3 dimensions here)

    For energy, it is not simply mass times acceleration- it is mass times speed SQUARED- so the faster bullet carries an advantage- AGAIN with the limit that the bullet MUST penetrate.

    Do not ever think that a handgun is going to "knock" a person head over heels. If it did, action vs reaction would mean it had already knocked the shooter head over heels.
     
  5. thdrduck

    thdrduck New Member

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  6. USEBOTHHANDS

    USEBOTHHANDS New Member

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    nah, that's the theory of relativity...........theory that space and time are "relative" to one another and the speed of light is a constant (in the vacuum of space) to all observers
     
  7. gunback

    gunback New Member

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    It is actually a phenomenon called a temporary wound channel- the hole that is made in you opponent is larger than the diameter of the bullet. Bigger the TWC, more damage to opponent.

    The bullet MUST penetrate deep enough that the TWC reaches vital parts of the body (think in 3 dimensions here)

    For energy, it is not simply mass times acceleration- it is mass times speed SQUARED- so the faster bullet carries an advantage- AGAIN with the limit that the bullet MUST penetrate.

    Do not ever think that a handgun is going to "knock" a person head over heels. If it did, action vs reaction would mean it had already knocked the shooter head over heels.
     
  8. gunback

    gunback New Member

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    I did the quote thing wrong sorry the top was quoting C3shooter
     
  9. gunback

    gunback New Member

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    A well placed 22 shot can do just as much if not more damage then larger calibers
     
  10. GunRunner

    GunRunner New Member

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    I understand shot placement is key, but that taken out of the equation, which is more important to have, a fast and light or slower and heavier? If both round were to strike similar target at the same area which round would do more damage?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  11. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    You have to think about it like C3 was talking about. How much of a wound channel is the round itself creating?

    The 5.7mm is a really popular round right now. I honestly don't know why, but it is.

    This thing launches with a speed of something like 2,300 feet per second for their 31 grain (heavy) round.

    The problem is the thing is moving so fast it doesn't have time to expand as it zips right through the target, thus the wound channel is small, just slightly bigger than the round itself.

    This was a problem that the Rangers and DELTA had in Mogadishu. Their small, fast moving 5.56mm rounds were going all the through the non armored population that was high on khat, thus when they were hit, they just kept on running and were not "put down".

    He's a question for yah. Would you rather be hit with a fast moving piece of bamboo? Or a slower baseball bat? :eek:
     
  12. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    Ya know, I don't have the answer for that. But, there is a great picture floating around the interwebz. I'll see if I can find it for ya. It can help you decide for yourself, in some way.
     
  13. DoyleTheDog

    DoyleTheDog New Member

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    I read that the 5.7mm starts to "tumble" after it enters the target. To me that sounds like a pretty vicious round...
     
  14. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    Here you go. Notice the wound channels. Expect the temporary wound channel to be around 1/8-1/4 larger than the permanent wound channels. 12" is a standard placed needed depth of penetration to hit vital organs. As you can see, they are all quite impressive except the heavier 9mm, and even then, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of it.

    Notice the 9mm is smaller and faster than the others. Does that help?
     
  15. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    Sorry, forgot the pic.

    handgungelcomparison.jpg
     
  16. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Okay, assuming that is true. And I haven't seen this proven, so we are just going on the assumption that it does tumble.

    It's moving at over 2000 feet per second when it hits you. How wide is the average human chest? 12"? 18"

    Say 2 feet wide, and the 5.7mm round hits at 2000 feet per second, but instantly reduces speed because of resistance and "tumbling".

    That means it takes .0005 of a second to travel the first 12 inches, and assuming it's velocity is cut in half to 1,000 feet per second, it takes another .001 of a second to get to the other side of the 24 inch fleshy thing.

    That does not leave a lot of time to develop a gaping wound channel. Almost none actually. You only hope is it hits bone and breaks into a million shards.

    I wish Sebbie was here. That gal's mind is out of this world brilliant and I know she would have a formula that would show all the possibilities. Maybe I'll PM her. ;)
     
  17. mdauben

    mdauben New Member

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    If it was that simple we would not have a dozen different SD cartridges and hundreds of different loadings. Unfortunately:

    F =/= combat effectiveness

    So your equation, while true, is irrelevant.

    can you point to any research that supports this? Everything I have read indicates that the temporary wound channel only becomes a significant mechanism when bullet velocities reach 2000-3000FPS which is much greater than most handguns are capable off. It's more a rifle wounding mechanism.

    Unfortunately "surgical precision" and "life or death" situations are mutually incomparable. A shot to the heart, spine or brain with any round might be equally effective. However a general COM hit with a .45ACP is much more likely to stop a fight than general COM hit with a .22 is.
     
  18. GunRunner

    GunRunner New Member

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    Thats what the 5.56 was designed to do, a wounded enemy that will or may eventually die that needs to be carried off as he screams in agony is more detrimental to the enemy than a quickly killed one.
     
  19. USEBOTHHANDS

    USEBOTHHANDS New Member

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    it is THAT simple!

    BUT, with that said, there ARE varyin factors that play a role in the projectiles' "kill" efficiency.........
    1. clothing (bein the more important)
    2. placement - soft tissue vs bone, or a combination
    3. distance to target
    4. barrel length
    5. etc
    6. etc

    so it IS relevant in many aspects. the equation ONLY imparts the knowledge of HOW and WHY. it does not take into account all the outside factors, 4 of which i listed above. take your pick on many others that can affect projectile performance. HELL, i didn't even mention FMJ vs HP vs SP. EVERYONE of these projectiles will REVELANTLY use the equation, BUT due to their make-up and INTENDED PURPOSE OF DESIGN, they WILL NOT give the same results on impact (as compared to one another).
     
  20. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    My read is the .45ACP is going @850 FPS, in a larger round.

    About half the "speed" of other rounds, yes, still pretty fast,

    but larger, and with almost twice the time in the target during

    impact. The larger size causes it to begin to twist, yaw, and in the case of

    HPs, open up, and cause more damage.