Where's the line?

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by BeyondTheBox, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. BeyondTheBox

    BeyondTheBox New Member

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    All this Rambo talk about carrying extra mags and multiple guns accessible to each hand in case the primary is out of commission for some reason has gotten me to thinking about other unnecessary accessories we could justify adding to the tool belt.

    I'm guessing most of us have knives on us, or multitool. But what about a need for placing someone under citizen's arrest? It only works if you can detain the perp and most BGs arent going to sit still while we call the cops. So what about carrying Cuffs or zipties?

    I laugh at all these overthetopizations, but seriously though, might not be a terrible idea to at least keep a pair in the car. Even if you shoot a bad guy it might not be bad enough he can't attempt a getaway. Why not just reach in trunk to cuff him and wait for police and ambulance?

    Probably useless in the end, but so could be my guns. Likelihood is I'll never need any of it. The whole point is preparedness is it not? So where does it stop? Where's the line drawn for you?

    I've just now drawn my line at a single gun on me for personal and home, with shotgun under bed, and one in car. Also a folding knife as simply a tool. That's it, no more frantic Rambos getting into my head and driving me further paranoid. I'm bad enough as is. Lol
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  2. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

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    Pretty soon they will be banning zipties "just in case". I carry bags of those extra large zipties because I use them by the hundreds for one of the jobs I do and they are handy to have around. I was once told by a cop that some cops would consider them to be a weapon. Seriously? I asked him how they could possibly be a weapon and he said they could be used to restrain somebody and I responded with "Oh really? Hmm. I have never thought of that. So. Now what if there was somebody in serious need of being restrained and I put them to use?"

    He said that I should just call 911 and let the police handle it. Yeah. OK dude. I'll do that.
     

  3. Marlinman

    Marlinman New Member

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    They also make dandy garrots;) the Stasi of KGB times used a metal ziptie for garrots. It was their calling card in fact.
     
  4. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    I draw the line at my gun, keys, cell phone, mason jar of sweet tea.

    I AIN'T RESTRAINING SH!T!!!!!!! My job as a father and a free man is to make it home to my son, everything else can kiss my fuzzy white ***.

    I will not attempt to restrain, I will not attempt to detain, and I will not attempt to chase. Cowboy boots ain't good for running, and if I've had to draw, chances are he'll be showing up at a hospital eventually anyway. I believe it's SOP across the country to report any GSW that walks through the door of the ER, and the police will have my report to corroborate whether it goes to deadly force or not, I report crimes if/when I see them happen.

    SCREW THAT. Hell no. Not just no, but hell no. Way beyond my duty of staying vertical.

    Obviously, the situation dictates. If letting someone run puts others in obvious danger, then I'll have to change my plan of attack. But if they're just bookin it down the street after snatching some old lady's purse? Sorry lady. I reckon you just lost a purse. No I don't care if there was a chihuahua in it. I guess you lost a purse AND a rodent.

    If they're armed and going into a crowded building, action MUST be taken.

    But dammit, why can't things be simple? I'm not a crime fighter. Not a super hero.
     
  5. Squawk

    Squawk New Member

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    Thank you Trip. That made my night.
     
  6. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    Quite welcome. I aim to please and sometimes offend. Bonus points if I do both at the same time.
     
  7. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And you enjoy the offending part. Admit it.
     
  8. 70cuda383

    70cuda383 Member

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    I agree with the Cowboy Trip.

    I carry a CCW because I plan to defend my own life or the life of someone else if in danger. purse snatcher? if he's the normal "cut the strap, grab the bag and run" snatcher, then I say let him run. Ask the lady if she's ok, and offer her my cell phone to call her banks and cancel her cards. Nothing in that purse is worth the lady's life, my life or the perps life.

    If I'm in a store or bank and someone is trying to rob it? is there a weapon? if not, then I have no justification to draw mine.

    A CCW license allows you to carry for purpose of self defense and the defense of another, not to be a self-imposed super cop. If a perp is in the middle of a crime, It's going to be a hard sell to the Prosecutor/jury that I was in fear for my life if they present a security video of me drawing and running towards the BG and becoming the aggressor.

    the number one rule in self defense? withdraw and retreat. create separation. If I do anything, it's going to be while I'm seeking cover and withdrawing. at that point, the BG has a choice. he too can preserve his own life and run away, or engage, in which case, he will be shot until the threat is neutralized.

    and neutralized does not mean restrained with cuffs. it means he is either lying on the floor bleeding/dead, or he tucked tail and ran.

    the ONLY situation that I would become the aggressor is if I find myself in the middle of another mass shooting at a mall, workplace, whatever, where the gunman will continue to shoot and kill until HE is neutralized.

    The thing you have to remember when drawing and engaging...Police are not going to know who the BG is, and who the CCW holder is, especially if the CCW holder who's "Defending" himself appears to be on the offensive.

    bottom line, no, I don't see a need for zip ties, cuffs, or anything like that.
     
  9. towboater

    towboater Well-Known Member

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    Nothing in that purse is worth the lady's life, my life or the perps life.

    I agree with most, but not all. If more purse snatchers were to loose their life while snatching. I'm guessing there would be a lot less snatchers.
    Same with car thieves. They should be treated as horse thieves were in the 1800's. Hung by the neck till dead. And in public.
    Am I just a mean ole fart??
     
  10. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Maybe a little too extreme, imo. Second offence, lose a hand, like they do it on the other side of the world. Their theft rate is very low, compared to the US, we reward theives with exercise centers, three square meals, cable tv, etc.
     
  11. 70cuda383

    70cuda383 Member

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    I agree with you...

    but I don't feel strong enough about it to spend time behind bars. Since we live in a politically correct, touchy feely society, chances are if a Jury feels that you were not on the verge of losing your own life, they'll convict you of some degree of Manslaughter, especially after the crooks teary eyed mom/wife/kid/whoever, gets on the stand and says "he was a great guy, he just was down on his luck and needed money to buy his kid a birthday present--he wasn't going to hurt anybody"
     
  12. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    If I have to draw my firearm, then I see no reason for a restraint mechanism.
     
  13. BeyondTheBox

    BeyondTheBox New Member

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    What about for use when a gun isn't called for. Those situations where you pulling a gun would be excessive force.

    Example: a thief running out of store, you have opportunity to catch him and help proprietor detain said BG.

    ... and other such similar crimes where deadly force is not required and could get you in trouble. Do you chose to stay out of it? I'd like to think I wouldn't. Never been in such a circumstance but doing the right thing isn't always about the severity of life or death.

    Just curious is all.
     
  14. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

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    You makew a great point. There are many crimes that are committed (like purse snatching) that do nor constitute a life threat but I think if I could do something to prevent them from happening I would. Like reporting a shoplifter I observe, or maybe tripping up a purse snatcher who happens to run by me on his escape. No need to pull your gun and hold him at gunpoint, but if you have the means to restrain him with little risk then why not do it?
     
  15. BeyondTheBox

    BeyondTheBox New Member

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    That's my thought.

    Another instance that came to mind is something like a car jacking or purse snatching, but what if the BG doesn't pull a gun and point it at you. Rather he lifts the shirt to reveal a gun, no words or actions to indicate any progression... is the showing threatening enough? Do you escalate by drawing yours first, isn't that grounds for prosecution?
     
  16. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

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    Depends on the specific situation. Brandishing (showing a gun under your shirt) is to me a lethal threat. Here in CA it would not go well in court if I were to have to defend myself.
     
  17. StainlessSteel215

    StainlessSteel215 New Member

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    Once they come for my pistols, shotguns and rifles, I would say thats where its time to push back.

    Other than that, in the wake of what just occurred. I can live without AR-15s and AK-47s. Im sure thats not the popular vote around here, but its my compromise.
     
  18. BeyondTheBox

    BeyondTheBox New Member

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    Yeah. To me it shows a lack of nuts. Can't think of a way to handle, because I'm not giving up anything for idle. Maybe that's where something like one of these Tactical pens could come in handy. I think a jury would be hard pressed to say a pen or fistfull of keys is more force than the means and malicious intent of the use of a firearm.
     
  19. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    If someone brandishes a gun and they already have hostile intent, that to me justifies deadly force, and it will later be left to 12 peers to decide whether it was right or wrong.

    These other scenarios you mention, about carjackers, shoplifters, purse snatchers...

    That's all a bunch of vigilante type stuff IMO. You can sometimes best serve yourself, your community, and the police by just being the best witness that you can be, up to and including taking pictures or video.

    If yourself or no one else is in immediate danger of death or bodily harm, I will personally take no action, but I will take one helluva description. If I do any chasing, it will only be to get a plate number before they get out of range of my MKI Eyeball visual sensory device.

    Citizen's arrest is legal in many places, and I think that in some places there is even legislation in effect that will protect a person making a citizen's arrest if it has been determined it was wrongful. But IMO, it would take a very desperate situation for me.

    If a death or major bodily harm has already occurred, or is very likely to occur... such as a murder, maiming or rape... I think that's where my line may be.
     
  20. BeyondTheBox

    BeyondTheBox New Member

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    Interesting thoughts. I can't say your points don't ring of a wisdom and truth, and I guess we can play the what if game until we're blue in the face. But, in the end, I can't go along with dismissing it as vigilantism, that would require seeking it out. These instances are simply scenarios about right place, right time and right to do. If the snatcher gets away could he not later pull an armed robbery and kill someone? I don't know trip... could've, should've, would've and between the two of us I'm sure a perp would wish he'd just stayed in bed. I won't knock ya for doing what you think to be right and I probably won't ever have to prove what I think is. Enjoy your tea m'friend.