What is ‘eminent’ danger?

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by Vincine, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

    3,495
    0
    0
    Suppose someone is pointing a gun at you and says you’ll be fine as long as you do what they want (give me your bag, wallet, ring, car, etc.). Is that eminent danger? Are you justified in shooting them?

    What if they are not pointing their gun at you, but still threaten to shoot you if you don’t do what they want (lie down on the floor, open the safe, etc.).

    What if this happens in your house?

    If your life is not in danger as long you do what they want, does that justify your killing them?

    How do you know they would not to kill you even if you do what they want? If you know someone by their actions, and their actions are that they are attempting to rob/mug/rape you, my feeling is that they are less than trustworthy. But that’s just my feeling, not the law.

    Does armed coercion count as eminent danger? Does armed coercion justify killing someone?

    Basically, "He said he would hurt me if I didn't do X, so I killed him." get you off the hook? Is it right?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
  2. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

    4,828
    0
    0
    Imminent danger can mean different things in different contexts but in regards to self defense it is usually interpreted to mean an immediate danger that is present and that you have no alternative other than to react to in self-defense. Certain states have recenty passed "no retreat" provisions to their Castle Doctrine laws that might expand that definition.

    In short...if you can run away, do it...if you are cornered with no chance of escape, draw and fire.
     

  3. orangello

    orangello New Member

    19,156
    0
    0
    Might be tough to get the drop on somebody who already has their pistol pointed at you. Unopposed ;) , i think i could convince a jury i was in fear of immediate termination.
     
  4. Mack Bolan

    Mack Bolan New Member

    878
    0
    0
    its a put on...its a put on.....


    oops, my bad thats an eminence front, sorry :D
     
  5. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

    3,495
    0
    0
    I edited my last line. Presume there is no escape.
     
  6. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

    4,828
    0
    0
    I would avoid that language at all costs. You defended yourself against a threat from which you had no other alternative course of action...if the attacker died in the process that was a consequence of his actions, not yours.

    Not qualified to give legal advice here but just get used to the fact that should you use a gun in self defense, the burden of justification will be yours. Any statement that implies intent to kill over self preservation will be used against you.

    I believe that there are a few stickies posted in the forums about what to do before you strap on your EDC...a good primer to read.
     
  7. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

    3,495
    0
    0
    Yeah, that didn't come out right. It may be what I meant, but not how I meant it. I just couldn't figure out how to say it.

    I'll go look again. (EDC?)
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
  8. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,448
    565
    113
    To attempt to give a cogent answer to what I THINK you are asking (have my diploma from Madame Zelda's Psychic School)- and not legal advice-

    When you have the present apparent ability to do me harm, and have placed me in fear of grievous bodily harm, you have just justified whatever I do to you to end that threat. Including forcing you headfirst into the Cuisinart, and hitting the "Liquefy" button.

    You have what appears to be a firearm in your hand, and have made a threatening gesture, statement, or inarticulate grunt- I know of no circumstance where I am forced to rely on the future good will of someone that is attacking me. As in "Do what I say and I will not hurt you." That person has already impeached their credibility. Felons are not noted for veracity.

    Now, we can spend some time playing "Yes....but what if....", however, that involves several beers, and you are buying the first round. The basic principle is that one has a right of self preservation. There is a legal concept known as "Greater Harm". It is illegal for me to break the window out of your car, BUT- your car is on fire, doors locked, baby in back seat- there is greater harm if I do not break the window, remove baby. Similar principle to self preservation- no rational person could require another to voluntarily give up their life.

    HOWEVER- and that is the biggest word in the English dictionary- If you shoot- or shoot at anyone, for any reason- your life is GOING to change in myriad ways from that moment forward. Some of them legal. Thing to remember is- it could mean that, going forward, you HAVE a life beyond that point in time. That trumps all else.
     
  9. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

    3,495
    0
    0
    So if they have the ability to harm me, and have stated or otherwise made me believe that they may actually harm me, even if they aren’t aiming the gun or swinging the bat at me at the time, I am in eminent danger because of their potential to harm me, and can defend against it.

    I washed out at Madame Zelda's :(. Which is why I have to ask the question. (But I suppose you knew that.)
     
  10. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    19
    38

    you are in eminant danger because a good portion of the time they shoot stab or bludgeon you anyway. in self defensive handgun/rifle/shotgun you dont shoot to kill you shoot until they stop threatening your life

    yes because you cant be sure they will do what they say and wont just kill you anyway

    doesnt matter if it happens on the moon you shouldnt let anyone murder you just to make a liberal democrat feel good about their support of rape robbery and murder

    no it justifies you use of self defense

    you just answered every question above


    it justifies self defensive actions till they stop


    no because self defense doesnt mean kill. if the goblin ceased action and he was only wounded or uninjured due to poor marksmanship on your part and fear on his or he turned to run away seeing your firearm and you just kill the goblin anyway you get a free ride to prison.

    sounds like you have a lot of confusion regarding self defense. i think you shoould consider taking a good firearm self defense course
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
  11. FatPat

    FatPat New Member

    130
    0
    0
    Agreed. Additionally, I would suggest that if you are this unsure what you will do in the situation posted, you may as well leave that pistola in the safe. When you strap on your favorite brand of iron, you'd better be absolutely prepared to accept the consequences, and as positive as you can be what action you are willing to take, regardless of the outcome.

    It is not my intent to be a jerk with the above comment, but sifting powdered sugar on it ain't gonna make it less bitter.
     
  12. collegekid20

    collegekid20 New Member

    207
    0
    0
    depends on the state, city, and what a jury of your peers or a judge believes. talk to a lawyer in your area.
     
  13. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

    3,495
    0
    0
    Well yeah, that’s my intention. I don’t have a pistol yet. I don’t even have my permit yet. My fingerprinting appointment is in a couple of weeks. But I’m doing my homework now for precisely the reasons you stated. I’d really like to learn, besides how to shoot the target and not myself, the judgment criteria for situations like I mentioned before I even carry a gun. I DON”T want to be unsure of what I’m doing when I’m armed. Which is why I'm asking these kinds of questions, among others.

    I’m looking to take the SIG Sauer course(s) in NH. It’s in driving distance, but I’m open to other suggestions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2011
  14. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

    7,715
    195
    63
    I believe C3 hit the nail on the head. There is no question in the scenario you are describing. If the perp is in possession of a firearm it is seemingly an armed robbery you are describing. Or in the event he has a gun in his hand and threatens to and including shooting you. Or also aims a weapon at you. YOU ARE IN EMMINANT DANGER! And in most states I am aware of you have every right to use force to and including deadly force in these situations. Even in a couples of our super liberal states I guess I would add I would rather be tried by 12 than buried by 6. A lot of these people shoot the victim after they are cooperative. And a lot of them are high on drugs or whatever. Only my opinion. But one here also hit on it. If he has the drop on you it is not time to play Marshal Dillon and have a quick draw contest unless he is distracted and you are proficient with your weapon. A lot of people do not have the mind to react rather than hesitate. Something to think about when making a conscious decision to carry.

    03
     
  15. Scratchammo

    Scratchammo New Member

    1,490
    0
    0
    Blackwater taught us the deadly force triangle. Opportunity, intent, & capability. The scumbag with the gun pointed at you is showing all three. Would you rather be judged by 12 or carried by 6?
     
  16. NOVA

    NOVA New Member

    209
    0
    0
    From what I have read so far I think you really should get formal training in SD. Obviously some of the posters here know the law, but I'd like to point out to some folks new to firearms like yourself that you need to be careful what you say in a public forum like this when it comes to describing what you would do. It can be used against you in court years later after you said it here.
     
  17. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

    3,495
    0
    0
    Yes, I’ve noticed C3 does provide clear and astute advice. At least to me. And I owe him a beer or two. You too. :)
    I’m expecting thinking about it now will foster ability to react later.

    What is called luck is really what happens when preparation meets need.
     
  18. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

    4,828
    0
    0
    100% of the reason why we do not give legal advice here. Anyone with a legal question should consult with an attorney...as we say, "the advice you get here is worth what you paid for it."
     
  19. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    19
    38
    often worth less :)

    OP: your on the right track with taking a ccw course which is NOT the same thing as a self defense course

    i personally have LE training SD training and ccw training. multiple and regular refreshers is what you need. self defense isnt something that just happens cuz you got a gun. but i think you understand that :)
     
  20. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

    8,409
    1
    0
    If you should be unlucky enough to shoot someone;

    1) Immediately contact an attorney as soon as safely possible.

    2) Say nothing to anyone. Under no circumstances should you "give your side"

    or "he said, I said" until you talk to legal counsel.

    3) Think about trying to treat the shot individual for shock and have someone

    call 911.

    4) If pressured by police, let them know you have chest pains, have to use

    the bathroom, are thirsty, and your attorney is on the way.

    BTW, until you are cleared to go, expect your gun to be confiscated...