what happens to the paperwork?

Discussion in 'NFA/Class 3 & FFL Discussion' started by 70cuda383, Nov 2, 2011.

  1. 70cuda383

    70cuda383 Member

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    when you go in to a store to buy a firearm, they make you fill out the yellow paper that says you're not an alcoholic, wife beating, communist, felon, who wants to buy said weapon for yourself.

    what happens to those papers? everyone talks about having worries of being tracked and having the government knowing what weapons you've bought.

    but...since the dealer puts on the sheet the make, model and serial number of the weapon you're purchasing...what happens to those papers when the deal is over?

    couldn't the government ALREADY be tracking who owns what guns and know where to go if they decide to implement some sort of gun-recall and super strict gun-control law?
     
  2. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    The paper is a form 4473. The dealer takes the form, and puts it in his filing cabinet. After 20 years, he can throw them away. If the dealer goes out of business, his records are sent to the ATF for storage.

    The info on that form- make, model, serial number, etc etc does not go to the ATF unless the dealer closes. If the ATF is conducting a gun trace as part of a criminal investigation, the maker tells ATF what dealer the gun was shipped to, dealer tells ATF who gun was sold to. Local very busy gun shop where I hang out averages one trace call a year from ATF. They have been in business about 45 years, sell about 50 guns a week.

    IMHO, you assume too much competence on the part of a government agency.
     

  3. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    Can I play devils advocate for a minute?

    So the same agency that forces you to fill out the paper is too stupid to know what to do with it? Maybe we should ditch them? Just sayin...
     
  4. RMP1394-RLTW

    RMP1394-RLTW New Member

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    I have noticed that every time they make the "$5 phone call" the agent on the other end always seems to ask what type of gun is being sold. So it makes sense to me that the agent could simple be imputing the weapon sold to the individual buying and there is the "list".

    Just sayin!

    RLTW!
     
  5. BenLuby

    BenLuby New Member

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    Now, if they did that where would the drug dealers and cartels get their guns from?
     
  6. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I'm not sure what you mean? ATF is forbiddeen by Federal law from computerizing the data contained in the 4473. Even after the dealer goes out of business and sends his records to the ATF, they keep the paper files for trace purposes. I have had more than one gun traced through ATF. IT takes about 3-4 weeks to get the reply. They can usually tell me who the initial buyer was. In the case of burglaries/thefts, I have had ATF find serial numbers for guns purchased by my victims so I can enter them as stolen.

    There was a period where ATF computerized the old 4473 data. When Congress found out, they ordered ATF to cease, desist and destroy what they had compiled. I believe this was a part of the Gun Control Act of 1968.

    They know exactly what to do with it...what Congress told them to do with it.
     
  7. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    BTW, when the dealer makes that phone call, it is not to the ATF. And the type firearm given is long gun or other. Different age requirements, y'know.

    Here in VA, it is to the VA State Police. We had our own Insta-Check system before the Feds. Other places, it goes to the Fed DOJ records section.
     
  8. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    I'm torn by this statement. I can see the benefit of having this information stored yet I don't like the idea of someone storing this information on me.
     
  9. 70cuda383

    70cuda383 Member

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    that's kind of what made me want to do this post.

    on some of the car forums I'm on, guys will say things like "yea, I got guns, but I ain't gonna tell ya what I got on the public internet...big brother might be watching and then he'll know where to come when it's time to confiscate weapons"

    while I think something like that would never happen, it certainly is possible as time marches on and they come up with more and more laws and controls that step in on the 2nd amendment.

    "toss a frog in a pot of boiling water and he jumps out. put a frog in a cold pot and slowly bring the temp up...you get to eat frog legs"


    all the talk you hear of folks being paranoid about the government tracking who owns what guns...yet...seems to me, they already are. maybe they're not computerizing the data into a database, but they're already collecting it.

    having that kind of data is good because when a gun is found at a crime scene, they can trace down the owners till the find the guy who sold it to the criminal, and who the criminal was. --if the prior owners can cooperate and remember WHO they sold it to when they sold it. but, on the other hand, I don't want them to be able to look up what I own, and where I live....
     
  10. ttolhurst

    ttolhurst New Member

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    I don't think any of us are delighted with it, but that's the way it's been since the Gun Control Act of 1968.
     
  11. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    You don't like the idea of someone storing THIS information? There is way more dangerous information being stored on you. Medical information, financial information, comings and goings, etc.
     
  12. silverado113

    silverado113 New Member

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    We also seen how that worked out for selling guns to Straw Buyers. I'm pretty sure the ATF is "forbidden" to do a lot of things. The question is; are they actually following those guidelines? I don't think so.
     
  13. neilage66

    neilage66 New Member

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    I've been fingerprinted for my employment.
    I've been buying hunting and fishing license since I was 10 years old (I'm 45 now).
    I've been an NRA member as long as I can remember.
    I subscribe to gun magazines.
    I been buying, selling, trading guns all of my adult life.
    Nowadays, I often use a credit card for guns/ammo purchase.
    I am expecting a CCW permit within 30 days.
    I belong to a gun club and shoot weekly.
    For years, I rented gunshow tables and traded there.
    I write my elected officials regarding issues of liberty and gun rights.
    There is a very large pile of 4473's spread out all over the country with my name on them.
    I own a home, so my address is public record.
    I have a driver license, an FCC license and a biometric Federal ID.
    I have personal friends with FFL's, SOT's and some specialize in Class 3, are manufacturers or play with *destructive devices*.
    I participate in several firearm internet forums.
    I use Google and their services (this may be the most dangerous).

    If I ain't on *the list (tm)* yet, I'm not trying hard enough.

    When the kill drones go up, I won't be at the top of the list but maybe somewhere toward the bottom...small potatoes that I am. ;):D
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2011
  14. 70cuda383

    70cuda383 Member

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    True!! If there is a "list" I know that I'm on it. nothing I can do about it, so I don't worry about it all that much. if 1984 ever actually happens, I'll tell them I sold all my guns during the "great depression of 2011" to put food on the table.

    --uh...because that's what I actually did...sold them at a gun show to some guy named John. he was slightly overweight, medium build, brownish hair, short hair cut....sorry I don't remember his last name....
     
  15. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Cuda- you getting senile or something? The same guy bought my guns at the same show. Pretty sure his name was Ted. Well, Theodore, but you kept calling him Ted. Polish last name. Kaszinskah-something. :rolleyes:
     
  16. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    I can't agree any more with this statement. You and I, sir, are on the same page.....I believe.