Went To The Top Of The Mountain To See What Was On The Otherside.

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by standingbear, Apr 10, 2008.

  1. standingbear

    standingbear New Member

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    Friends,
    I am sorry I have not been onboard and putting my two cents in. I am a Disabled Veteran and the injury I sustained has almost put me down. I am going for MRI's on upper and lower back and neck and on too Duke to talk about surgery. If they cannot guarentee me 100% fix, then I will not let them cut. Especially with everything about to explode all over the world. Had a friend get called off leave early and his ships had already departed heading for you all know where and he was having to fly over to meet them. Wonder what is about to happen. Israel doing a emergency drill, issuing gas masks and Chemical Suits to everyone. They are removing all extra arms and ammo and reissuing it to the civialn population. they have moved and reenforced their Northern borders and are preparing near Gaza. Syria has moved two tank brigades into the Bekava Valley to bloster Hezbala. If the s--t hits the fan, we can expect the sleeper cells here and all over to come active and you can imanage what will happen. They stated that if there were 100 sleepers put here in the US, say twenty years ago, maybe 40 of them will have soften their views towards the west and will not carry thru with their tast, but the other 60 will do as they were instructed. I hope and pray the FBI and the other Fed's are on to them and can stop many. I have to give them credit for stopping many who have had bad thoughts towards us. I would say a person had better have at least two weeks of food and supplies ready and some cash on hand, ( if the dollars is worth anything anymore)
    Anyone out there know of a cheap pump shotgun in the 12 guage? I have plenty of ammo and such, but need a blaster for in home protection.
    You all take care and I will try to be more friendly from now on and not a stranger. You all do write some great articles. I have learned a lot from you all. I will be looking at the survival site to see if I missed anything and see if I can learn more. May GOD watch over and bless everyone of you and your families in the coming storm and keep you all safe and well through it all!
    Standingbear
     
  2. Boris

    Boris New Member

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    Not too fear brave warrior, Hezbola do not operate outside the Middle East and as of 4pm Central European time no Syrian military units have moved into southern Lebanon. Another incursion into Lebanon by the IDF would not be too popular at the moment, Hezbola held them last year and they took a lot of casualties. The Syrians do have a number of military advisors still there and of course substantial influence in some quarters.

    There are substantial Israeli forces on the southern border with Gaza and their security has been reinforced with tanks who have recently made incursions into Gaza in order, they say to attempt to prevent rocket attacks from inside Gaza.

    I would imagine that there are terrorist operatives active all over the West, all we can do is in major population areas is to be vigil. 12 gauge is not a bad idea though.

    I trust all goes well with your MRI scan and that they are able to resolve your medical problems, or at least bring you to a point where the pain can be managed to give a better quatity of life.

    David.........
     

  3. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    If anyone held anyone back, it was Israel holding itself back. Clearly, it lost that pseudo-war. But had Netanyahu been at the helm instead of Olmert, the outcome would have been very different, I think.

    Israelis will not tolerate much more abuse from Hamas in Gaza or Fatah on the West Bank or the swine in Iran/Syria/Lebanon, and most of all, they won't tolerate much more abuse from their own government. It could get interesting in that part of the world very quickly and possibly very soon.
     
  4. Boris

    Boris New Member

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    I don't think the IDF was held back at all last year, Hezbola was extremely well organised, trained and equipped. The Israelis took it out on the Lebanese people, with indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas, they are clearly in the middle.

    This dispute will not ever be solved though the barrel of the gun, but whilst the State of Israel refuse to acknowledge the UN mandate and resolutions, and refuse to withdraw to original borders there will never be peace. Their blatant ethnic cleansing is a disgrace. But no one is allowed to criticize them. Their whole state was founded by terrorism. I will in no way condone terrorism but given the plight of the Palestians you can understand why fight the way they do.
     
  5. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    'Scuse me? The pigs raining rockets down on Israeli civilians were storing their rocket batteries in residential garages. Hamas hid among the civilians, using them as human shields. The IDF could not attack Hamas without causing heavy civilian casualties.

    Olmert-the-limp-wristed felt pressured not to let his forces attack and clean up the problem. Now, Hamas is re-armed and probably better armed. Israel's problem has grown worse, not better, and the world thinks no better of Israel as a result of it showing restraint.

    That is nonsense. Jordanian, Egyptian, Iraqi, Iranian, Syrian and Lebanese expats euphemistically known as "Palestinians" want Israel gone. Period.

    Israel must bow to U.N. resolutions, yet the arabs living in the area known as "palestine" do not have to recognize the U.N. decision to create the state of Israel? That's not entirely fair, don't you think?

    It may be possible for Israel to go back to its original borders. (Though I think the intended corpus separatum status of Jerusalem is a non-starter with most Israelis.) But there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that aggression against Israel would cease if they did.

    Israel ceded the Gaza Strip in a good-will gesture, leaving buildings, hospitals, and infrastructure in place. What did the arabs do? They trashed the place completely and used Gaza as a place from which to launch attacks against Israel.

    Who are those living in Gaza dependent on for power, water, etc? Israel. Why not Egypt? Why not some other country? Why not themselves?

    Arafat was offered huge concessions on the part of Israel. In fact, Israel gave him what he had originally asked for. But rather than accept, he got up and walked out. He did not want peace. Fatah and Hamas do not want peace. They want Israel gone and the Jews out. It is the Arabs, not the Israelis, who are engaging in ethnic cleansing.

    No, I really can't. I understand the Balfour Accord. I understand the British Mandate of Trans-Jordan. The land in question was Britain's to give to the Jews, and the borders were drawn appropriately. Who were the aggressors in the 1948 war? Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon. The arabs declared their "al naqba" (the catastrophe) and tried to wipe Israel off the map. Who was terrorizing who?

    Since then, Israel has suffered more attacks than any other country yet it has the power to take care of the problem. It has shown remarkable restraint. The world will probably have Abdul Qadeer Khan, Pakistan's scientist who developed their nuclear weapons, should all hell break loose.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
  6. watfreedom

    watfreedom New Member

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    it was the united nations bright idea in the first place that has caused these problems for the israeli people, i dont believe it would be wise to follow the un's mandates. as a nation surrounded by hostile people who would love to wipe out israel i believe israel has been rather mellow throughout the years. if america were in israels position all the surrounding nations would be reduced to rubble. if mexicans started hitting american cities with rockets/mortars claiming they wanted the southeast united states back how do you think that would fly? do you think if the united nations said "well thats mexican land you are illegally in occupation of so please uh, just give it back" do you think we would listen? all the talk i hear coming out of the mideast is "death to israel, death to america". war leads to war and it would be foolish of israel not to fight back.
     
  7. McNabb11b

    McNabb11b New Member

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    I would suggest remington 870. It has tons of options and is very reliable. Mine still has yet to jam, and I have used it alot.
     
  8. Boris

    Boris New Member

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    No, I really can't. I understand the Balfour Accord. I understand the British Mandate of Trans-Jordan. The land in question was Britain's to give to the Jews, and the borders were drawn appropriately. Who were the aggressors in the 1948 war? Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon. The arabs declared their "al naqba" (the catastrophe) and tried to wipe Israel off the map. Who was terrorizing who?


    Well as for terrorism you could ask my father he was blown up outside the St David's Hotel, and as he was in the Royal Engineers (bomb Disposal) at the time he was also present at the orange grove in Hifa where they recovered the bodies of two Brtish sergeants hung from the trees, he jewish terrorist group (the Stearn Gang) rigged the bodies with grenades as a booby trap for the medics.

    As I said I do not agree with any form of terrorism. The rocket attacks from Gaza should be condemed fortunately there have been few casualties and sadly one death. The reprisals on the Palestinian population has been disproportionate, and with no standing army the obviously feel that resistance is their only option. The suicide attacks can be traced back directly to the attack on inoccent civilians at prayer at the El Axia Mosque, in which a IDF reservist with the cooperation if local military entered the building and started to shoot and grenade the congregation. The Isrealis have place a stone comemorating the event outside.

    Palestine was not British, we where the occuping force, it had been promised to the Arabs after the Great War. An accomodation was made due to the pressure from the Americans to give the Jews a homeland.

    To resolve the conflict you must also look at both sides......
     
  9. moviezombie

    moviezombie New Member

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    Boris, you are always a voice of reason: people object to land they live on being reassigned by other nations? promises broken to garner poltical goodwill with another nation? unforseen consequences being dealt with 60 years later? it is never a clear cut issue w/o going back and studying history.

    movie zombie
     
  10. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    I think the saddest commentary is that all that blood has been shed over different religious beliefs. Believe what I believe or I am going to kill you - A great way to ingratiate yourself to the supreme being in the afterlife, assuming one exists. I like pie. What? You like cake? BANG! Heathen.

    More blood has been shed since the dawn of time over one person's view of what is "right in their religion/belief/mythos" than for any other reason on the planet.

    And "Society" will claim that someone who kills the criminal that raped/murdered/assualted, say, a member of their family, is wrong and needs to be punished. :WTF:
     
  11. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    It's all I can do to restrain myself on this issue. Explain to the mothers who watched their infants get blown to pieces that the coward piece of crap who did it was a hero. Explain to the co-workers, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, children and friends that the people they love who were gunned down or blown up in unexpected deliberate attacks on unarmed, unsuspecting civilians are heroes.

    Screw that. Believe what you want. I understand good from evil, right from wrong. And the vast majority of the atrocities committed since 1948 in and around Israel have been by the arabs and the nearby states supporting them with funding, training, weaponry and ideological indoctrination.

    God damn, guys.
     
  12. Boris

    Boris New Member

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    My point exactly gentlemen, there must be compromise and dialog from both sides, and to for us in the West to make a rational and fair assessment of the position both sides will assist in bringing forward a just settlement.

    At this point although I believe the people want a lasting peace, the conservative and hawkish elements on both sides are preventing a meaningful settlement.
    If we are not being seen to be even handed in this process, this will be a rallying call to every dissident muslim group and we will be living with the threat for 30 years or more.
     
  13. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    But Israel has not been using its capabilities indiscriminately to kill for the sake of killing.

    You're sounding a bit like Jay Rockefeller to me there.

    Israel launches attacks in response to attacks. Israel uses precision-guided munitions to target specific people or places; it is doing what it can given the advanced technology it has to keep civilian casualties down to a minimum.

    The same cannot be said for the arabs who seek to kill as many Israelis as possible whether IDF, police, government or civilian.

    Killing is undesirable, but sometimes it is necessary. Murder is wrong. The arabs have been trying to murder those living in Israel since 1948. Israel has had to kill to defend itself.

    Naturally, then, you hate Americans and the United States as much as you hate al Qaeda and other terror groups?
     
  14. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    So, Israel making all of the concessions Arafat wanted wasn't enough to score a lasting peace?

    (That's a trick question. No, it wasn't enough. The arabs living there, most of them, anyway, want Israel gone. Not reduced back to its original borders. Not with East Jerusalem theirs. They want Israel completely gone.

    Listen to them, not me, if you don't believe me.)

    Not only was conceding all to Arafat not enough, Arafat launched his Second Intifada meant to "push the Jews into the sea" and wipe Israel from the map. Hell, even the U.N. had a map on display of the area without Israel.

    People who want their own country work to build one, not tear down someone else's.
     
  15. Boris

    Boris New Member

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    The Israeli administration had consistantly refused to deal with the late Arafat and the present elected administration have recognised Israel's right to exsist, but I would refer to your last comments, isn't that also true for those who have for centuries inhabited Palestine?

    I know you haven't held back about your feeling and opinion of the peoples in this area of the middle east, the whole area has been carved up into states by the Western powers. This is an ancient culture with a written language that goes back 5000 years.

    They see it as their country since 1948 has been illegally occupied by Israel, in not agreeing to UN resolutions, and returning to the original borders. This occuping army has disposessed their people and refused to accept returning refugees from the conflict. Their land, homes and possessions where given away to European Jewish settlers, and land is still being taken without any recourse. They see their leaders simirialy assassinated without recourse to law, and their people killed by ground incursions and air attacks. Israel has never made an agreement they have been relied upon to keep, other than they said they would resettle the occupied lands, and they have.

    We can all understand that two wrongs don't make a right, but the Palestians see occupation and injustice everywhere. Even during the Intifada the IDF routinly shot unarmed people resisting by stone throwing, they even shot Western Peace Protesters! I think your support of Israeli policy is not balanced, but you are intitled to your opinion, the Palestians are also intitled to their own country, where they have lived for centuries, but unless Israel ceases it's expansionist policy this conflict will never be settled.
    The Palestians have no resourses, no standing army with which to defend themselves, but they are resourceful people with strong family and clan ties, with a firm religious belief in their cause. In some way one can only respect how the average Palestian has born the last 60 years.

    Who knows perhaps a way can be found to find a resolution, but frankly I would hold your breath........................
     
  16. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    You blame them after what he did?

    Respectfully, there has never, in the history of the world, been a "Palestine". The word palestine is a Latin word given by the Romans and derived from "philistine" and was attributed to non-Jews living in that region.

    The history of the region is replete with violence, subjugation and slavery. Before 1947, those living in the region had been exploited for almost 200 years by the Ottoman Empire.

    Since the recreation of Israel, those living in the region have benefited as a result.

    I'm very much a live-and-let-live sort of guy. A very violent ideology propagated by hundreds of thousands of people over a huge area (in and out of the Middle East) that means to see the destruction of everyone who is not like them does concern me, yes. Hopefully, it concerns you as well.

    Respectfully, that's revisionist crap. Israel was formed by the U.N. and Jewry from all over the world who came to live there were content to live within its borders. The attack came from outside, and the nascent Israelites responded appropriately to defend themselves. The Golan Heights, for example, were used by Syria to rain down hell on Israelis, which is why that ground was taken.

    Since the first attack, there have been tens of thousands of smaller attacks carried out on a weekly (often daily) basis. Should Israel give their enemies a tactical advantage?

    First, control of the land was Great Britain's. Second, those living in the region have it far, far better than they did prior to the start of WWII. The opportunity exists for the creation of a new country.

    But as I said earlier, and as you seem to be corroborating, their objection to Israel existing is the barrier. One of two things must happen: Israel must go away, or the objection must be eliminated.

    But when countless Israeli citizens are brutally murdered at the order of these terrorist assassin pigs, that's OK with you?

    First, there is no such thing as a "Palestinian". Second, they see occupation and injustice in order that those fomenting hatred and violence might enrich themselves.

    Nonsense. Utter crap. Israel has not been the aggressor. Every neighboring country has, however. You just got through implying how the arabs, who we in the West euphemistically call "Palestinians", are so angered that Israel exists at all, there can be no peace 'til Israel goes away and those living in refugee camps can reclaim their ancestral lands.

    That is a very alarming statement and one with which I do not agree at all.

    History shows these people were terribly violent against one another prior to 1947. They were Nazi collaborators.

    Why must Israel compromise when it has been attacked? Where are Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria? Why aren't they brokering a peace deal and trying to either absorb those living in the region or helping to establish a new country? Because they believe Israel should not exist at all.

    So it comes down to this fundamental issue: either Israel should exist where it does, or it should not.

    If the arabs put down their guns, there will be peace in the Middle East. If the Israelis put down their guns, there will be no Israel.
     
  17. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Sincerely, from the bottom of my heart, I apologize for offending you.

    I am not a Jew and I have no affiliation with Israel. But I have kept current with events in the region since 2000 (which has spurred me to research some history). And while Israel has not always acted with honor, the vast majority of violence has been perpetrated against Israel by others.

    To equate Israel's responses as being as wrong and evil as the unprovoked attacks is not right, in my opinion, just as those who blame the U.S. for bringing the 9/11 attacks upon itself or that fighting violent fanatics in Afghanistan and Iraq are "disproportionate" are not right.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2008
  18. Boris

    Boris New Member

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    Why would they do that? If the Israelis moved to their rightful established borders then the Palestians would have no excuse but too comply, or face the wrath of not just the Israelis but also the International community.

    I fundimentally disagree with your position, but you are intitiled to your view, but I am disapointed none the less at some of your personal comments to me....
     
  19. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Ditto.

    Yes, well, I'm disappointed with the nature of the arguments.

    Maybe you're right and all Israel need do is return to its original borders as established in 1948. I'm sure Olmert will oblige at some point. We'll see then whether or not the violence subsides.
     
  20. Boris

    Boris New Member

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    Don't hold your breath.................