Use the right ammo

Discussion in 'Glock Forum' started by Glockshooter, Dec 14, 2009.

  1. Glockshooter

    Glockshooter New Member

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    The following ammo choices are the best, proven bullets
    by experts including the FBI, the IWBA( International Wound and Ballistics Association. ), Dr.Gary Roberts, and Dr. Martin Fackler.


    45 acp


    Cor-Bon 185gr DPX (DPX45185)
    Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
    Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP +P (RA45TP)
    Federal Tactical 230gr JHP (LE45T1)
    Federal HST 230gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
    Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2):)
    Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)



    40 s&w


    Winchester Ranger 180gr JHP (RA40T)
    Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
    Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
    Winchester Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355)
    Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP (53962)
    Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
    Federal Tactical 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
    Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
    Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)



    9mm

    Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
    Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T):)
    Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
    Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
    Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
    Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
    Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
    Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)



    357 Sig


    Federal Tactical HST 125gr
    Speer Gold Dot 125gr
    Remington Bonded Golden Saber 125gr
    Winchester Ranger T 125gr
    Corbon DPX 125gr


    :) My duty ammo.
     
  2. MTS840

    MTS840 New Member

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    Good choices. Here's the list I go by:

    Service Pistol Duty and Self-Defense Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums

     

  3. Glockshooter

    Glockshooter New Member

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    A little light

    Thanks for the thread. Most of the ammo is spot on, though quite a bit is too small and too fast for practical defensive/offensive uses. In 9mm the 147 grain gives bullet retention and penetration, even out performing more powerful larger calibers. As the diagram showed.

    I don't shoot the 40 or 357.

    As for the 45 the ammo listed is great. I had to go through a library of books and sources to get my ammo list of proven man stoppers. You just show me a site that has 70 % of them. How convenient.

    Welcome (glockperfectionorg)


    Check out my site and the Glock 19C and why I consider it to be the best CC self defense/duty gun around. :)
     
  4. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    While the lists above may, for all I know, be exactly right, it should be mentioned that the FBI criteria are designed to suit the needs of the FBI. Private citizens may not have the same needs. Private citizens are less likely than FBI agents to shoot through car parts, for example.
    Federal's Personal Defense Hydrashoks are for private citizens...
     
  5. Glockshooter

    Glockshooter New Member

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    FBI Ballistics

    FBI- formost experts on ballistics in the world.


    I use 147 grain Rander or Speer gold Dot 147's. N0 +P+ 100 grain going 1490 fps @ 599 Ft/lbs is gong to out perform it in penetration, weight retention, and killing power. a simple subsonic 147 will penetrate a full 10 inches deeper than a 115 grain. A 147 gr. 9mm will go as deep ad a 230 gr. 45 acp. there's plenty of proof on the web and my site. The 45 just makes
    a .251 larger hole diameter on average. That's it.

    As a professional and a citizen, everyone who wants to protect themselves with their gun should forget about speed. It means nothing. Go heavy in your bullet weight.

    Glock 19C and 9mm Ammo (glockperfectionorg)


    Go here and learn about the 9mm and other calibers on my page. Their on the 19C page.


    The reason the FBI , Dr. Fackler, deemed these bullets worthy is because they will kill or stop what you are shooting at. If you want to trust your life to Extreme shok...go ahead. For me and everyone else, stick to proven ammo which does it's job, what a bullet is intended to...kill. Save the 115 grain for target practice.

    Test it out yourself. I have. I know a +P+ 115 grain will fragment and only go into 6" of flesh after hitting a rib. A 147, will be in one nice large mushroom through the heart and both lungs. On a pig. The closest animal to a human. Many companies test on pigs.
     
  6. MTS840

    MTS840 New Member

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    I understand, but I would not assume that you won't have to shoot through car doors or windows. Carjackings do happen and if your bullet can't reliably penetrate the sheet metal and glass of your own vehicle to have an effect on the bad guy outside, your gun or bullet is useless.

    Not all bad guys are stupid or cowardly. Some know how to take cover as well as we do when bullets start flying. Not all will run away at the first sign of resistance from their intended victims.

    Some bad guys may have long rap sheets and may have served time in prison. They may be tough, hardened career criminals who have been beaten, shot and/or stabbed before. They know what pain is like. They may not be afraid of your little gun and in the event you actually have to use deadly force, they may not drop after one or two solid hits. And there may be multiple bad guys with them.

    Remember, a serious criminal wants to take your life a lot more than you want to take his. He will have initiative and aggression on his side. We, the good guys, will be reactive to the situation and naturally more hesitant to use deadly force. The bad guys know this and will use it to their advantage.

    Some bad guys even practice with their guns. I have seen some really shady characters practicing at my own indoor pistol range. They don't all carry the cheap guns which FTF after one or two rounds. Although it is unlikely, you really may have to engage multiple attackers from behind common barriers such as interior building materials and car doors.

    Even if there is no metal or glass in your way, your shots may have to penetrate through intervening arms or legs, or traverse the body from a sideways orientation. He may be crouching, or in some other position other than presenting you with a nice, unobstructed frontal body shot.

    What's even more ominious is that you will probably miss at least half the shots you take at the aggressors.

    In my opinion, hollowpoint bullets in calibers chosen by police agencies as their primary duty weapons are the only ones suitable for self defense.

    I just think you have to plan for the worse case scenario and that your weapon should be as versitile enough to handle as many different scenarios as possible within the scope of a concealable self defense handgun.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2009
  7. Glockshooter

    Glockshooter New Member

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    Going heavy

    MTS840 is on the money. And further explains my point. A 147 grain FBI approved 9mm will penetrate deeper than a 165 gr. 40, and a 185 gr. 45 acp. This is proven. End of discussion.


    Go with 125 grain in .357, 147 gr. in 9mm, 180 in 40, and 230 in 45 ACP. It doesn't matter if they are +P or not. If they are on the list I posted they are meant to kill. To defeat barriers. There are bad men out there who have been shot before. They will try to kill you in the day, to steal your money at gunpoint, to take your car. They are out there and they are armed and very willing to kill you. And in most cases they will not let you shoot at them in the open. They will take a car door for cover or a house door, or behind sheetrock. I know my 147 grain bonded Rangers will penetrate, when the time comes. I know my 230 grain 45 Gold Dots and Ranger's will also.
    Without the right bullet your gun is a loud noisemaker. Don't fall prey to the numbers game. With handgun ammo you will not get enough hydrostatic shock to stop an attacker. You will not get the cavitation of a .223 or .308 going 2500 + ft/persec.

    Handgun ammo creates a crushing wound channel. Bullets depend on penetration.


    I've tested and shot over 70,000 rounds in my life, a lot at my job which tests ammo and guns for the military. Go to the largest grain bullet. The ammo listed are the better, more known ammo makers... but any similar dependable company will do. I think Hornady makes a 147 gr. 9mm and a 230 45 acp. They aren't on the list, for example, but their ammo passes the 12" of penetration in 10% ballistic media.


    When facing a determined attacker, be prepared with the right ammo. Your life does depend on it. I'll stake my life on it...because it has.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  8. MTS840

    MTS840 New Member

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    This article contains information which is seriously outdated. Ammunition development has come a long way since this article was written and the admonition to "NEVER use 147 grain 9mm" is a tell-tale sign.

    Many current 147 gr. designs have shown the best penetration and expansion available for the 9mm caliber.

    And while there are a few good 115 grain 9mm loads today, the assurance that the 115 gr. hollowpoint is the best weight for this caliber is not supported by current research.

    The author gives credit to work published by Marshall and Sanow, whose data some say has been discredited, to say the least.

    A much better source of information can be found in the links which have already been posted in this thread and by a careful reading of Duncan MacPherson's "Bullet Penetration..." available here:

    Order Page for Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics...* - by Duncan MacPherson

    If you don't want to buy the book, you might want to read this document published by the FBI:

    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf


    As far as exotic ammo is concerned, I can't imagine many scenarios in which it would be appropriate in a civilian self defense setting.

    Even if you're in an apartment, using exotic ammo may not penetrate the walls, but it may not penetrate far enough to disrupt the vital structures of your attacker, either.

    This "overpenetration" issue is way overblown, in my opinion. As mentioned earlier, you will probably miss at least half your shots anyway, especially when suddenly awakened in the middle of the night by an intruder.

    I suppose exotic ammunition may have a place, especially for police or military use in some very limited applications.

    But for civilian self defense use, I would pick from the lists that have been posted earlier in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  9. Glockshooter

    Glockshooter New Member

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    Chuckhawks thread

    I think this stupid assesment should be deleted off the internet. It is full of false outdated information.

    As to frangible/exotic ammo...use it for small game hunting. Not your life.
    Most of the crap wont even pass the 4 layer denim test. I have of course used it and wrote about it. It fails to feed well, is innacurate, and a waste of your money.


    I love the 9mm the most. In 147 gr. there is little it can't do. For QCB 9mm's I trust the Glock 19 and HK P2000 first and foremost. These guns are proven using millions of +P rounds in hostile environments. From the operator to the civilian, these are guns that will save your life, work every time, and you can shoot all day long w/o getting sore hands.

    For the 45 I like the 1911 platform only. I have shot just about every 45 handgun on the market, and the problem with most is the weight. A full size 40 oz gun or a 4 to 4.25 inch compact weighing 31+ oz. is a perfect weight that will allow for a lot of shooting, accurate shooting, and fast recovery. Nothing against Glock but the mini 45 is one of the hardest guns to keep on target, and after 100 rounds I don't want to shoot it any more.

    Best 1911's for a combat weapon I have ever owned and used. Wilson's, Knighthawk, Springfield. Remember, there is a difference between a target 1911 and a QCB weapon. A Les Baer is a target gun. They recommend at least 500 rounds to break it in. You will get jams and mis feeds in this time. I own a 4" Monolith Commanche. Will I trust it now that it has about 1000 rounds through it? No. Will I trust a Wilson Combat out of the box? Yes.

    Point being you need the right tools. Do your homework.
     
  10. MTS840

    MTS840 New Member

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    The article you cited may be a bit more recently updated, but since it bases its conclusions on faulty methodology, it is largely irrelevent.

    The links I posted deal with the dynamics of wounding mechanisms. Those do not change with time. Your article is based on data collected from shootings based on the reaction of gunshot victims when they realize they have just been shot.

    Your data was collected simply by noting that if it 'stopped' an attack, then it was counted as an effective round. If the attacker was not incapacitated, then the characteristics of the round were ineffective.

    This is faulty methodology. No serious researcher of terminal ballistics would include data such as "91% one-shot-stop," without regard as to which internal structures are hit. Certainly, a hit to the heart or other vital organ is usually much more reliable than a hit to the bowels of the lower abdomen, but data was collected using just one solid hit to the abdomen and then judging which caliber or aspect of exterior ballistics was most effective in producing this "stop."

    You see, there are two ways in which projectiles incapacitate human aggressors: Psychological and physiological.

    As mentioned, psychological incapacitation is the emotional state the target is in when he realizes he has just been shot. He may have any number of reactions to being shot. He may fall down, he may run away, he may surrender, or he may continue to advance, etc.

    Psychological incapacitation will vary from one person to another. If he is a reluctant attacker, he may run away or surrender if he is hit in a non-vital area, or he may fall down even if the bullet missed him entirely. Drug or alcohol use, or just the sheer will to keep fighting may influence the target's reaction to being shot.

    Obviously, this is not a reliable way to predict a bullet's effectiveness. What may incapacitate one person may not work at all on another.

    No aspect of exterior ballistics from a common self defense handgun caliber can reliably "induce" a psychological stop. It is solely the reaction that the target has to being shot.

    The other wounding mechanism is physiological incapacitation. This kind of incapacitation is based on shot placement and penetration deep enough to disrupt vital organs or blood loss. This is the only reliable way to "stop" an attacker.

    It occurs fastest when the Central Nervous System is disrupted to the point that it can no longer tell the body what to do and the attack is stopped immediately. It does not matter which caliber, bullet style or how fast the bullet was going. If it penetrates deeply enough to disrupt the CNS, it works.

    However, in the dynamics of a gunfight, disabling hits to this area (brain, upper spinal column) are difficult at best.

    If the CNS is not disrupted, the only other ways to physically incapacitate the attacker is by disrupting vital organs or blood loss. But this takes time. A determined attacker may take 20 seconds or so to cease hostilities even if the heart is destroyed by gunfire.

    Shot placement and penetration are the most important aspects of self defense ammunition, not the kinetic energy levels of the cartridge as implied in your article.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  11. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    So far, the information provided I would strongly agree with, especially MTS840, but that's just my own personal opinion. Please continue. :D

    [​IMG]


    Jack
     
  12. Glockshooter

    Glockshooter New Member

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    Go large in weight!

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo



    This link had most of the best ammo. Stick with it. Although I would count out the lighter grain calibers.

    1. Use 147 grain 9mm
    2. Use 125 grain 357 Sig
    3. Use 180 grain 40 S&W
    4. Use 230 grain 45 ACP

    These grains by Speer, Hornady, Federal, and Winchester will serve all average gun owners and operators well.

    • They will achieve 12 + inches of penetration
    • They will retain 99% of their weight
    • They will stop an attacker


    They are proven!
     
  13. Patrick Sperry

    Patrick Sperry Member

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    This is all very interesting...

    I'm just a dumb retired Paramedic that dealt with people that had been shot. Both LEO shootings, and civilian incidents. But? For what it's worth...

    On several occasions I saw people hit with multiple 9mm's that just kept on going. Anyone from the Denver area might remember the bad guy that took more 38 and 9mm hits in front of the now closed grocery store at Sheridan and 51st ave that had ran over and killed a detective will remember the footage from Channel 4. What finally stopped that rampage was a load of OO Buck at less than ten feet. That's probably the best example that I can point to.

    Another would be the woman killed in Broomfield by a stalker. Single 9mm to the back of the head, it was a FMJ round,and yes,that was a single round stop,as well as his suicide shot. Although he died several hours later at St. Anthony central...

    As for 357's? They all just dropped, plain and simple, but, those were all classic hits to the CNS, and a 22 will do the same.

    Pretty much the same for 45 ACP shootings. I never saw a 45 Colt shooting, so I can't really comment on that.

    Now 40 S&W seems to be a fair round, but,as always placement is key. Only having been on a few, and all were police shootings my advice still is to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

    As for heavy rounds, and penetration? Again, any from the Denver area will remember. I took care of the Asian kid that was shot by a gang banger in Broomfield with a 10mm Auto. He was out of surgery within the hour. That was with a 200 grain bullet... On the other hand, the robber that didn't get away after holding up the Applebee's on Main street? He took one square in the chest from an off duty officer. Weapon was 10mm Auto 180 grain from about ten feet. (We were eating there when this happened.) It blew clean through his heart, severing the spinal column... No pulses with CPR, and I called him dead right there...

    Not trying to pick a fight, but those are just a few things that I had direct observation of over the years. Placement, in my opinion, is what counts more than any other factor.
     
  14. MTS840

    MTS840 New Member

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    Bullets do strange things. The caliber stamped on your slide is no guarantee of anything.



    Here's a story of a US soldier who was shot at point blank range with a .50 caliber BMG--and survived.

    'I'm too stubborn to just sit in a wheelchair and take it.'


    Here's a story of a woman who was shot through the brain with a .38 caliber bullet and suffered only minor wounds.

    Woman makes cup of tea after being shot in head - Telegraph


    And here's a story of a British soldier who was shot through the brain by a Taliban sniper.

    British soldier survives bullet through brain - Telegraph


    Another British soldier was shot through the brain in 1977 in Northern Ireland and survived.

    Michael John survived being shot through his brain in Northern Ireland


    Stories abound during warfare in which troops keep advancing, even while sustaining mortal wounds.

    The point of all this is that the human body can still function even while sustaining huge amounts of damage. Don't trust the caliber of your weapon. Keep shooting until the threat is over.
     
  15. Patrick Sperry

    Patrick Sperry Member

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    Yes they do!

    Strange things do happen, as you noted. I met a guy once that had been in the Marine Corps and served on a recoiless Rifle team. Somehow, he got in front of the spotting 50 BMG barrel just as it went off. He was disabled to be sure, but he survived.