Unarmed against a knife

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by Gojubrian, Apr 21, 2010.

  1. Gojubrian

    Gojubrian New Member

    6,262
    5
    0
    I've had an exchange the last couple of days with a fellow martial artist discussing unarmed against a weapon.(knife,gun.etc) We disagree strongly on what can really happen during this sort of exchange. Hopefully, we will be getting together soon to put his theories into practice. He's much younger than me and a blackbelt in jujitsu, but also trains in judo some.

    After more than 20years of training in the martial arts I am absolutely certain that against an attacker with a knife you WILL get cut, sometimes badly. I am also sure no man can move faster than 1200fps, conservatively speaking. I have FBI ans SWAT training partners who agree with me.

    My training unarmed against weapons will most likely help me to survive such an encounter, but that's my goal, survival. I don't fool myself into thinking I can disarm a knifeman and overcome him without being seriously injured.

    I also beliveve MOST knife disarmements are completely unrealistic. Don't fool yourself. A good way to discover what would happen is to use white t-shirts and use a red marker as a knife. See what happens. :)

    I'll let you know what happens.
     
  2. Gojubrian

    Gojubrian New Member

    6,262
    5
    0
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WjSTIcE0cE]YouTube - Shock Knife Fight[/ame]

    In this scenario the attacker knew exactly what was supposed to happen. There were controlled movements and no slashing stabbing like in a REAL situation.

    Training like this still has great value because it teaches you the principles, techniques, and theorhetically what can happen.
     

  3. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

    8,358
    4
    0
    I see one major problem with his defense, he did not let the attacker/knife come to him. If you aggressively move toward your attacker, you cannot anticipate your attacker's move with the knife, forward thrusts, upward or downward slashes. Let the attacker make his move toward you, so you can counter his move and block/control his knife hand and arm.

    There are also other strikes and blows that can be made against your attacker depending on how you take control of him and what open areas are in striking range while you are entangled. Head butt, knee to groin, foot to inside of knee, elbow to neck, face, solar plexus, bite to facial area, and finally control his knife hand and use it to slash or stab his own thighs. All are distractions to disarm and gain control over the knife and him.

    And yes, most often than not, you will get cut.

    Jack
     
  4. Dzscubie

    Dzscubie New Member

    2,508
    0
    0
    YES, you will get cut and yes you can survive and win in a knife fight even if you don’t have a gun on you. I was cut twice with a Mexican “zacatripa” knife, it’s a kind of slim hawksbill knife with not as sharply curved a blade that is used to castrate animals. I was able to drop my attacker and get away. He cut through a down vest, flannel shirt and long underwear in two slashing cuts. I was not even aware he had a knife until the tip hung up on my breast bone. I hit him up side the head with a full bottle of beer and dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Funny thing is I didn’t cut my hand at all. It took something like 89 stitches to close me up. My scars still itch and this happened 30 years ago. I know now that I can survive a knife fight but I’ll tell you this…. If a guy pulls a knife on me I’m not going to hesitate and I will shoot that SOB with every round I have.. I don’t want to get cut again.
     
  5. Gojubrian

    Gojubrian New Member

    6,262
    5
    0
    Amen to that. :)

    I was slashed on my right bicep and still have a 4inch scar there. I ran off and won. :D
     
  6. Franciscomv

    Franciscomv New Member

    1,257
    0
    0
    I agree with a lot of what Goju posted. IMHO, most disarming techniques are unrealistic and just wont work at full speed.

    When I first started training with knives my instructor taught me a lot of nice drills and beautiful locks and holds, after I learned them he said "Now we'll do a couple of rounds at real speed, and you'll see that none of them work." and he was right.

    Another thing he thaught me right away was that there's a really high probability of getting cut even if you've got a drawn knife too, even I being a beginer managed to score a few hits on him in our practice fights (granted, I'd cut his arm and he'd get me in the throat).

    Unnarmed combat against a knife weilding opponent is, like Goju stated, strictly a survival affair. Training is crucial, but it has to be properly done, fast and with the armed guy really trying to inflict serious damage. At my gym we usually do an excercise with two unnarmed guys trying to pin down or knock out a knife armed opponent, the guy with the knife wins 95% of the time.

    Improvised weapons can mean the difference between life and death (like the bottle in Dzscubie's story). We interview ex-convicts often to learn from their knife fighting experience, I remember a guy (a former muay thai national champion student of my teacher who got involved with soccer hooligans) who was attacked by several men armed with shivs and managed to survive by using two cooking pot lids as shields. He ended up in the hospital, and took months to recover since he did receive several cuts and stabs. I think that's a very successful outcome considering he was sleeping when the attack begun, and there were three guys attacking him.
     
  7. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

    8,358
    4
    0
    I concur with all the above stated, especially if your attacker is hellbent and experienced using a blade. But one is only unarmed if he chooses to be so.

    Look around your surroundings in any given threatening situation. You may have several different improvised weapons at your disposal. The number one weapon at your disposal is your mind. Use it, anything may be used as a weapon, no matter what it may be, whether it is used to extend yourself and block the attacker or it is used lethally against them, it is better to use something, than nothing at all.

    The attacker has a knife, and there are no rules in any fight, especially a knife fight, so anything that is not permanently attached to the ground, can be a defensive weapon.

    At all times, if one wants to survive, one must improvise.


    Jack
     
  8. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

    7,143
    1
    0
    Of course if you're Jack, you can disarm the would be knife attacker with a steely glare...
     
  9. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    11,380
    1
    0
    Our "Sponaneous Knife Defense" class is based on the principle that you WILL get cut. You just try to minimize the number and severity of the cuts.

    Armed knife defense currently relies on the 30 foot rule. Inside of 30 feet you will likely get cut even if you manage to draw and shoot. Personally, I advocate pelvic girdle shots in such situations. A well placed shot to the heart can take 30 seconds or more to incapacitate your adversary. A determined attacker may have the will to do you harm, but will have a great deal of difficulty in doing so if the pelvis is broken. It does not matte how stoned one is, it is not possible to stand on a broken pelvis.
     
  10. Wambli

    Wambli Member

    958
    0
    16
    I agree 100%! If the guy has a knife you need to stay away from that blade. Unless you are in the middle of a desert you can look for chair, tables, lamps, pool cue, walking stick, a heavy leather belt with a big buckle, or just about anything that can be used to keep him at bay and deal some blows to him. If all the guy has is a knife in his hands he is in big trouble if I have a chair in mine.

    If you are forced to go hand to hand Krav Maga has some great techniques that work against knives very well. There is a good chance you will get cut so your goal is not to just throw the BG around but to END the threat swiftly so you can then attend to your injuries.
     
  11. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,445
    555
    113
    If I can keep him away until I reach a weapon, I will. Lacking tables, chairs, lamps, 6 ft of log chain, I will make the assumption that I WILL get cut. Forget disarming. Let him come to me, get inside his shirt with him, and kill/disable him as quickly as I can. Eyes/temple/throat/groin/knee. Stop the brain, you stop the hand, stop the hand, you stop the blade.
     
  12. JSDinTexas

    JSDinTexas New Member

    51
    0
    0
    Let's see now, a blackbelt in jujitsu vs. 10mm - Hmmm

    Unarmed? Not likely.
     
  13. saviorslegacy

    saviorslegacy New Member

    708
    0
    0
    I love how everyone has a story about where they have been assaulted and people still say that we are safe and that a concealed carry is not necessary.
    When I turn 21 I am going to go sign up for concealed carry classes and then on the way back home I will pick up a case of beer. After that I will need to find a good concealable fire arm..
    *priorities
     
  14. Flint Rock

    Flint Rock New Member

    441
    0
    0
    I don't remember the source, but I was once told that most gun shot victims that make it to the emergency room do survive. The flip side, most stabbing victims do not survive. A knife does a lot of damage.
    I have found that all to often, gun armed people think they are at a great advantage over a knife carrier. If you are ready, and have the luxury of distance, the gun will win that fight. As the distance closes up, things get "complicated".
    In training, I place two students seven yards apart. One is the defensive gun carrier and the other is the attacking knife carrier. Gun carrier has a timer and records the time it takes the knifer to cover the seven yards. The knifer starts his charge when he wants to, so the total time also includes the gunners reaction time. Keep in mind that the gunner knows the knifer is going to charge and is ready.
    Okay, where is all this going? A knifer will cover the seven yards and put the blade in the gunner in just less than TWO seconds. An experienced/trained defensive gunner, expecting attack and tensed up facing the threat, using non-retention gear and drawing from concealment, can put two rounds in the target in about 1.75 seconds. Gentleman, in that situation, you will get cut. The attacker probably won't drop in his tracks. He probably will power through to you and start cutting you up.
    Lessons I try to hammer into students. Knives are VERY dangerous. Try to keep 10 yards between you and him. As soon as he moves toward you, you move away from him, distance is the only advantage you have. Shoot him down to the ground. One, two, three, ten, fifteen, whatever it takes. Let Chuck Norris handle all the unarmed stuff, the rest of us shoot.
     
  15. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

    4,992
    51
    48
    Many people don't realize the real world is not like the movies. They think you can shoot knives out of peoples hands and stupid stuff like that. We had an officer involved shooting in my town just a couple of months ago. Two officers were responding to a domestic dispute at a hotel. The husband started coming toward them with a knife. They shot him dead right there. DUH!!! What else could have they done? According to all the idiots in Grand Junction this was unjustified. The officers were cleared of any wrong doing but not without a fight and a bunch of slander from the public.

    I believe the only way to safely disarm a knife wielding person is to remove it from their hand after you have shot them a couple of times!
     
  16. Gojubrian

    Gojubrian New Member

    6,262
    5
    0
    Tueller Drill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIZw5bx8-Eo]YouTube - Tueller Drill[/ame]

    Learning how to use your hands and feet to create distance is critical when using a firearm. People think they can draw much faster than they really can. Practice your draw!
    I can draw from my crossbreed pretty fast. I draw while stepping or shuffling sideways and back.
    Trying to create distance in a small room is more than difficult, know some hand skills. Use angles and circular hand movements.
     
  17. m72law

    m72law New Member

    1,316
    0
    0
    i was at a friend of mines party...there was 4 of use still going @3am in the morning...one of his drunken room mates came out of his bed room and asked us to keep it down,he was trying to sleep...we told him no problem.well the two girls there with us got a lil bit loud and no more then 10mins later,my friends room mate comes out brandishing a giant flemarket special bowie knife,and tells us hes going to cut our tounges out with the knife...my friend got his attention while i inched my way closer to him...keep in mind the guy is only 5'5''125lbs full of beer and is sh@tfaced...well i noticed he wasnt paying me any mind so the liquid courage kicked in and within 3sec. i was able to strip the knife out of his hands and didnt end up with a scratch...though after my friend took him to the ground and a few fisticuffs from my friend,there i was pulling him off the drunken roommate:rolleyes:now i understand it was one of the dumbest things i could have ever done @ the time...and knowing what i know now...i think i would have just grabbed the females and got the fu@k outta there...unless i had been armed...of course beer-n-guns never mix:(
     
  18. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    19
    38
    Two year old post. Just fyi
     
  19. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

    10,198
    0
    0
    Someone owes this thread two birthday cakes. :rolleyes: :p
     
  20. knfxda

    knfxda New Member

    690
    0
    0
    HA! Post of the day! :D