Two great rifles... I think

Discussion in 'Auto & Semi-Auto Discussion' started by CJx, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. CJx

    CJx New Member

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    I'v done some research not too extensive, and if I had to choose 1 AR-15 and 1 AK-47, I would choose a Colt LE6940P with the articulating link gas piston system, and an Armament SA-M7R

    My mind would already be made up on ALP system vs direct impingement for the AR. Choosing between those two rifles would be quite difficult, but honestly I think I would go with the Colt 940P. ARs are known to be more accurate at longer ranges (500 yds+) and the lighter 5.56 round is favorable in terms of ranged ballistics.

    Losing the long tested reliability of an AK platform would be a really tough thing to do, but the articulating link piston system of the 940P I think would suffice as well as an AKs gas piston system.

    Granted this is all hypothetical, but the Armament AK is about 900 dollars cheaper than the Colt 940P, so if I didn't have the funds, I would still have an awesome rifle in the Armament. Does anyone have experience with either of these rifles, and am I sound in my judgements and thoughts?
     
  2. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    The DI AR15 platform is very reliable. It is battle proven beyond any doubt. It is in fact simpler than the AK system. The only real advantage to the piston modification is the gas pressure valve for suppressed fire.

    A genuine AK will likely tolerate more dirt and mud in the action, in fact much more than you will ever encounter. For that you would give up the precision and the ergos of an AR. I'd consider a Colt 6920 or similar.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013

  3. CJx

    CJx New Member

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    Why do you specify "it is"...?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
  4. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    It was unnecessary. Redacted.
     
  5. CJx

    CJx New Member

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    My research shows that DI system is more prone to failure due to the hot gasses and dirt emissions from the cartridge having nowhere to go, so the gun must be maintained well and frequently, which could be a disadvantage in a prolonged hostile situation. However. I'd rather not debate DI versus piston in this thread, I'd like to debate the Arsenal SA-M7 platform vs the LE940P or other similar platforms.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
  6. chloeshooter

    chloeshooter New Member

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    have you shot either of these rifles, or anything close to them? technical data and internet forums can be helpful.....

    for me, when looking at any firearm, everything else goes bye-bye if it does not feel right in-hand, shoulder well and most importantly, shoot straight....as in each time.
     
  7. CrazedJava

    CrazedJava New Member

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    Are you planning on having a rifle in the field? For everyday shooting at the range, possible home defense, or land defense if you are rural, the AR15 platform is fine.

    That's said as someone who does not necessarily feel the DI system is terribly reliable, but that's when it gets REALLY dirty. If you're in a position to keep the rifle maintained then it will do fine by you.

    I would say that in general the AR15 gives you more options, more support, and is just overall easier to own. I love the AK platform, but most of us are not going to be humping our rifles through the jungle for weeks at a time.
     
  8. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    I've got ar15 and ak both. Not all ar15 are the same. No gun ak ar15 di driven or piston will run dirty in an unlubed state. Don't lube an ak it will stop running parts will break just like in an unlubed ar15.

    Properly maintained and lubed is the key to any firearm. I got into using motor oil for lube in the army. It was easier to find a dipstick in a motor compartment for a few drops of lube than it was finding huge quantities of gun oil. My issued m16a1 in basic and later A2 in my duty station had no problems cycling in even the worst rainiest muddiest dustiest conditions.

    I don't think pistons are inherently reliable by design. Just the opposite. Your more liekly to suffer catastrophic sidelining failure from a piston system than any concern over failure to cycle. This is true of the ak system as well. The piston oprod is the weak link in that system. Its such an issue fnh over engineered their scar series to eliminate the linkage between the piston and bolt carrier.

    On the ak47 the weak link and a use over time fail point is where the piston is connected by a very small pin to the bolt carrier. Yes they are pinned on and ground and polished so it looks like one part but its not.

    The reason my ohsht gun is a bcm di gun is all I need are very simple tools that can be handcrafted if needed to fix anything that goes wrong if it does. With a ak or piston ar15 you need specialty parts or a full machine shop to get em running again.

    Now my ar15 is a midlength so I keep several middy gastubes on hand in my kit as that's the only off part in the gun.

    Anyway just my opinions take it for what its worth. Good luck in your decision and colts are better guns than ak's
     
  9. CJx

    CJx New Member

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    I think alot of soldiers with an M16A1 in vietnam and other wars where the A1 was used would tend to disagree. Atleast the M16 cleaned up after the A1.
     
  10. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

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    That was then. Fouling ammo and miscommunication. Most Vets I know like their ARs today.

    I am a trained operator with a 516 SIG. Very fine piston system, 4 position regulator. Also nose heavy compared to their M400, not as well balanced. Cleaning? Zero sum. Less action fouling and a dirty piston assembly.
     
  11. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    That's like saying the ak47 sucks because the svt40 was fail prone....

    Even so your referring to the initial rollout of the m16 when the government did not issue cleaning kits oil or instruction on cleaning the rifle combined with non chromed chambers and bores coupled with ammunition made out of spec with extremely fouling powder that was discontinued shortly after 1967 due to its extremely dirty nature.

    The a1 version came out with several changes like chrome linings refined bcg cleaning kits better ammo and instruction on cleaning...

    The a1 did not have the issues your referring to and was in service unchanged for nearly 30years before the A2 was introduced.

    The problems of the first issued m16 had nothing go do with the gas system.
     
  12. nchunt101

    nchunt101 New Member

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    I wonder what arm chair the OP did his research on. Arm Chair Commanders choice of operating platform is vitial to ensure the regurgitation of flawed facts and internet BS.
     
  13. CrazedJava

    CrazedJava New Member

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    FWIW, my only experience with an AR-15 platform was the M16A1. They did not do well when they were dirty. We cleaned the hell out of them but those things jammed all the time. Part of it was when firing blanks. That's like adding a lot of extra gunpowder residue and other nasty crap right into the gun. (Not an exaggeration at all, you have to plug the barrel to cycle blanks. Guess where the crud goes?) Even for target practice though, those rifles had a lot of problems. I generally did not have an issue but since I was only a first year cadet (ROTC) the only time I fired live ammo was indoors with a .22LR conversion. (Sidenote: Not knowing about the history of the .223 at the time I was blown away how you could fire .22 through an M16 with just a magazine adaptor and a bolt insert.) Generally speaking I didn't have an issue at the range but the junior and senior cadets often experience problems with 5.56mm at the outdoor range.

    What I learned from the A1 was it doesn't like being dirty and didn't particularly like to be outdoors. When it was clean it was fine.

    However, these are extreme conditions. It rained EVERYTIME we had a training exercise. There was always mud and moisture. Put a blank adapter on a rifle and it won't take long to foul up the insides.

    That's why I think the AR-15 is fine for most civilian applications. You're not going to take a rifle to the extremes for the most part. The AR-15 is simple to own. Really, even though I own an AK-Variant I still try to maintain it. Take care of your rifle and it will take care of you. I may not have a lot of confidence in the DI system but that doesn't mean AR's are junk. I just wouldn't want to carry one in the same circumstances ever again. However, I haven't run through a swamp with a firearm since college.
     
  14. M605

    M605 New Member

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    I have shot both the AR and a AK (well a Romanian G AKM) and very much like the feel of the AK though it is heavier and doesn't carry well holding it with one hand. But I purchased the Romanian G AKM anyways not only because I like the AKM and funds was sort of a factor as well. But to be fair I was looking for a down and dirty SHTF rifle that had good penetration around 100 yards and under and I think the AR is not a good penetrator at close ranges. I got what fit the bill for that scenario IMO. Hope I never have to put it through the test.
     
  15. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    When you shoot blanks you also have to clean the gas tube. Military gastubes don't get cleaned. Shooting blanks in a piston gun is muuuuuch worse than in a di gun. That piston gums up in a few rounds and pretty much ceases to function at all. The gas port has to be cleaned as well and that's not any easy task. Running 22lr in a ar15 is on par with shooting blanks as in it suldnt be done without a vey strict cleaning regimine.

    That's why any semi auto that cycles blanks often has trouble with live ammo. You can't judge a class of weapons by first shooting poop through em. Blank powder is pretty close to what the early m16 had for gunpowder only the blank powder is a bit higher grade...
     
  16. purehavoc

    purehavoc New Member

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    Im a huge AR guy , but even I cant say that the DI Ar15 is simpler than the AK system . Field strip them and lay all parts out and tell me which one is simpler . I think you will change your mind
     
  17. CrazedJava

    CrazedJava New Member

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    That shouldn't even matter. Any rifle you can field strip without tools is simple enough.

    Is the comparison that the AK has fewer parts? That's what I've heard before. Field stripping an AK is a piece of cake, getting it back together can be a pain. I know the dust cover on my Galil clone has a notorious reputation for being difficult to get back on.

    However, I've had more than my fair share of experience field stripping and cleaning the M16A1. Yeah, there are a lot of small internal parts in the receiver, but you don't need to fully dissemble the weapon for regular maintainence.

    Either platform is simple to maintain. Saying the AK or AR is simpler to maintain is like saying $1.01 is more than $1. Sure, it's true but who cares?
     
  18. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    When you strip down an ar15 you get 3 parts the gun a bcg and a charging handle. Strip down an ak you get the gun dust cover recoil spring bcg

    Ar15 is 3 parts ak is 4 if the bolt doesn't fall out 5 if it does. Ar15 is more simple. I ha ent go e through government schooling lately but 3 is smaller than 4.

    You can strip both down much further it its not needed for most cleaning
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
  19. purehavoc

    purehavoc New Member

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    I coundnt agree more with you really , My AK simply falls together I dont seem to have any issues with the dust cover . They are both simple and basic really other than a few small parts in the AR . Simple enough my 9 yr old field strips them both without issues . Keep them both lubed up and they will outlast most any of us even with a fair amount of use .
     
  20. CJx

    CJx New Member

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    For any qualms of AK-47 vs AR-15 field stripping, please refer to the 2:00 minute mark of this Mail Call clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxxKxrouHoQ

    Granted make and models differ, and I'm not sure how much difference, but this is certainly impressive. Also remember that this is on American television, so theoretically it should be biased towards American machinary, which Ermey clearly is :eek:
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013