Truth from a laser salesman? Or just trying to sell a laser?

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by theferg2000, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. theferg2000

    theferg2000 New Member

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    I was at buds gun range the other day trying to break in my new Taurus 740 slim line (and no, i am not looking for the Taurus hating here -lol)

    So i put about 100 rounds through the gun, and after a little bit of getting used to the gun, all of my shots were grouping at about 3 inches. not a single group worse than that.

    but all of my groups were significantly low and to the left. I concluded that i needed to adjust the site, but was more interested in getting the gun broken in, and did not bring anything to work on it.

    After wards i was browsing, and a crimson trace rep happened to be at buds restocking some inventory, and he asked me what i had, and tried pushing a laser for my gun. I told him i was not interested, but told him i did need to get my sight adjusted - just being nice/for conversation.

    I told him that it was shooting low and to the left, but my grouping was at about 3 inches, and he proceeded to tell me that he bet i was anticipating before firing (i know what he meant, and early in my shooting, i was absolutely guilty of this for a short time). BUT i told him i did not think that could be the issue as the other gun i took was hitting the mark with about three inch grouping, PLUS i would think a consistent 3 inch group would be hard to achieve if you were anticipating. Also the group was always off by the same distance low and to the left several inches for both. He would not have any of that, and persistently stuck to the fact that i was anticipating. Well i just let it go.

    Being that i am no expert by any means, and want to get better if i am screwing up, i thought i would get some more neutral opinions here. Am i right here? Is it likely that someone could be anticipating and CONSISTENTLY (and i mean not one shot out of the group off for several clips) group well?

    If you are anticipating wouldn't the grouping be all over the place? I left him with joking that i did not think i could anticipate that consistently.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  2. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    Someone needs to post the "target" here as low-left is really a common problem...
     

  3. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I find that if I anticipate, I shoot low and left. It causes you to push the gun down and left. If I twitch on hammer drop, I shoot high and right. This happpens when the hammer suddenly releases after a hard creepy trigger pull. Trying to push the shot will cause a low hit. Some of the triggers are so lawyered up it is hard not to do one or the other. I dont have the problem with my Glocks but the guns with long not so smooth trigger pulls make them harder to control. I had the trigger on my SP101 worked over to make it smoother. A friend has a Colt 1911 that he shoots about 4" high and right. His gun has a definate sight problem and needs the sights adjusted so it is not always the shooter. Have someone else shoot the pistol and see where it is shooting. Also higher speed ammo will shoot lower due to time in the barrel as the gun is recoiling.
     
  4. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Here is the target that NGIB was talking about, this is for Right Handed Shooters.

    As you can see, there is a fine line between tightening the fingers ( strangling your grip ) and "slapping". Which is often confused by wannabe know it alls.

    If all of your 3" groups were in that sliver, than slapping the trigger is about as consistant as one can get I would imagine.

    However, it's more likely to believe that you are holding the weapon with a bit too much moxy and that is leading to you being low and left time and time again.

    The good news is, whenever a new ( or newer ) shooter can group several shots together at any point on the target, it is MUCH easier to correct and get that same group moved to the right part of the target.

    I printed a bunch of these targets out and got Shoot-n-See stick on targets that were big enough to just cover the 10 ring ( the 2" or 3" ones worked great ) and I made about 50 copies.

    Take them to the range and shot like you normally would. When your rounds on not striking where you want, you have instant feedback on the target itself to try and correct with your next magazine. ;)

    JD
     

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  5. Missileman

    Missileman New Member

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    A good test to see if the sights are the problem: Hold the pistol with your shooting hand only enough not to drop it. Wrap your other (supporting) hand around your grip and squeeze so that the supporting hand is what is holding the pistol on target. Use just the tip/end of your finger on the trigger and squess off a shot while coninuing to squeeze hard with your supporting hand and not with your shooting hand. Try this a few times--it will tell you almost always where your sights are aimed and where the gun naturally shoots.
     
  6. ScottA

    ScottA FAA licensed bugsmasher Lifetime Supporter

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    Milking the grip is the first thing that came to my mind.
     
  7. theferg2000

    theferg2000 New Member

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    Thanks for all the replies, and great advice, i will try each one.

    But let me give you a bit more info and see what you think. My tests were with a .40 single action, where as the other pistol i fired was . 380 S&W Bodyguard (double action), with what i think is a pretty long trigger pull.

    I know that i used to have a problem with shooting low and left (along with many others), but with practice corrected it (i have been shooting for about 4 years or so). So i was going over everything in my mind that i have learned. But with the .380 DA, i was right where i wanted to be on every group. I even switched over to hers, and back to mine to see if i was just not doing something right. And the shots were probably about 8-10 inches low and about 6-8 inches to the left at 7 yards.

    I have been sick for the last year and a half or so, so i have taken a break from regular practice, and am just getting back into it. Please don't take this reply as one of those "just agree with me, I am right" posts. I just want to get all the info out, and if i am wrong, then i am wrong, and i want to correct it. Thanks for the input.
     
  8. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    I will say that I did have one Taurus (not for long) that did actually shoot low & left. Can't remember which model it was, I think a Millenium Pro, and I tweaked the sights to get it better before I traded it off. I've also read more than a few threads about folks sending their guns back due to "accuracy" problems.

    Shoot it off a rest and allow a few others to shoot it the same way. This will absolutely tell you whether it's the gun or technique...
     
  9. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Ferg - Can you tell us where on the clock your groups are at?

    7 O'clock?

    8 O'clock?

    Combination?

    Because you might have two problems going against you. Shooting the same weapon off a rest as NGIB stated would be a great start. Do you have another experienced shooter who can go to the range with you?
     
  10. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to your chart I am mistaken about anticipation being the cause of the low left. I sometimes use a laser on dry fire and I find that on a long hard pull I would at times try to force the shot and the dot goes down and left. I called that anticipaion but may be I should have called it impatience. I dont have it happen on a good SA or striker. Also in dry fire I have watched the laser dot move to the right on hammer drop. Again with long hard pulls. I shot a P11 today ( no laser) and you probably know their reputation on triggers. I was able to control it fairly well thanks to dry fire practice and a lot of rounds through a previous P11. I also find it much harder to shoot consistant groups when the grips are too small. My PF9 was too small. I have also found that if I put the safety on or squeeze on an uncocked striker, the harder I squeeze the tighter my grip gets and I start pushing down and left. I am probably doing the same thing on a hard trigger.
     
  11. theferg2000

    theferg2000 New Member

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    Hey JD,

    here is an approximation on what happened consistently that day. I dont know of too many experienced shooters in Lexington. My brother shoots, but has been at it less than i have (i gave him his first gun not too long ago). Never been shooting with him, so i dont know how good he is. But i will go with him just to see if we are getting similar results.

    This is the first time i have ever had an issue with a sight. In the past my groupings were never consistent when i had a problem, which pointed to me being the culprit. But like i said, i have taken some time off from consistent practice. But then again, the week before i went with a more familiar gun, and was happy with what i accomplished (considering that i was a bit rusty).

    But to answer your question it was closer to 7 O' Clock. The image below will display differently on different monitors (some will squash the picture shorter, and some may show it a bit wider than what i originally made. But it should be showing about 7 O clock. It was down more than it was to the left.
     

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  12. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Well, you are right in that threshold between the two possibilities. Do you own any snap caps? Or can you have your shooting buddy load a mag for you with a dummy round or expended shell in it that you don't know is there?

    When that "shell" chambers and you pull the trigger and nothing happens, your buddy will be watching based on round count and will be able to much better see if there is something that you are doing that is evident.

    Being that far left and that far low has me perplexed to be honest. That is a pretty big difference.

    You don't shoot across the gun or anything right? Left eye dominant but holding right handed or vice versa?
     
  13. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    to fix this and figure it out by yourself get some dummy rounds like snap caps and replace one bullet in the cylinder or magazine at random. when it goes click instead of boom it will give instant feedback to what is occuring.

    a laser will only reinforce a bad habit.
     
  14. theferg2000

    theferg2000 New Member

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    No sir. I was shooting in the Weaver Stance, and i am right handed if that helps.

    The distance is why i was concerned too. I mean at 7 yards, either i am REALLY doing something wrong, or the site/gun is really off. If i would have put all the shots on the head i would not have bothered to post about it (beings that i am rusty - it had been a week since i had shot, but about 6 months before that).

    I know i am no expert, but i am a fairly good shot. I learned to correct my issues, pretty quickly when i first started, but i did not have the knowledge base in here at my disposal then.

    Several years ago when i was first learning (it was the first time shooting a hand gun besides when my dad thought it would be funny to let a small boy shoot a 357 magnum in front of his friends), i even had anticipation (where i would tilt the gun down trying to account for the force) that was lower than that chart, BUT it was also all over the place. But like i said, every group was consistently off that much. I know i am rusty, but after seeing this i really focused on the techniques that helped me in the past for anticipation,and other problems, counting out step by step all the things that had become natural to me.

    I will take it out within a couple of days and try again, taking my brother with me, and go over everyone's suggestions. I appreciate all the help. This gun is very slim, so it maybe that i am gripping it wrong, or something. I will try to take photo of the target after wards if i am still having issues.
     
  15. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    The problem that has me perplexed is that if you are slapping the trigger ( jerking it ) then your groups shouldn't be that consistant, even at 7 yards.

    Granted 21 feet isn't far for a bullet to travel, but to be in the same pattern time and again, in the same location, means you are either the most consistant trigger slapper I have seen, or there is something else in play here.

    Does the range offer a pistol instructor?
     
  16. theferg2000

    theferg2000 New Member

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    I am not sure, I have only been to this location twice now, but it is a VERY nice range in my opinion, so i would bet they do. I was thinking the same thing for the consistency. I would think that if i was doing something wrong (other than maybe a grip, or stance, or eying it wrong) then i would have a poor grouping. Plus to be off that much, it seemed strange even for me! BUT I WILL clear it all up. I got to thinking about it more, and i know some of the guys that work there pretty well, so i will at least get one of them, or maybe even the range guy to take a few shoots. Should he be right on the mark, i will immediately leave the range and sign up for a beginners course again, and make up a great tale for you guys :D.
     
  17. DrumJunkie

    DrumJunkie New Member

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    Low and left with a right handed shooter can be a drop for anticipation but can also be not enough finger on the trigger and can be pushing it a little. I had to look that pistol up beng I don't have a lot of first hand info on that particular model. It's a short barreled .40 so the recoil is pretty crisp. I got to asking around and have found that the triggers are a lot like the Millennium models. I have had one of those in that caliber. And it also shot a little low but I was shooting at around 20 yards. What got me thinking is the triggers are such that finger position on the trigger will do a lot. They swing left/right) a little in their travel so you can push or pull a trigger and have your finger where you do on a similar weapon and it not be as right as it could be. JD's idea with a snap cap or dead case could see it or maybe using a point and dry fire and watching the movement when the trigger breaks. The not knowing might show you more of what you need to know truth be told. The mil-Pro 40 I had did shoot a little low though and the two are pretty similar.
     
  18. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    After reading this I am going to say sights. If you are only doing it with this gun and none others then your not slappin the trigger.

    As for Tarus sights I don't think anyone checks them at the factory. A buddy wanted me to test his new Tarus SS 92 knock off 9mm that thing at 10 yards was 2' low No that is not a typo 2' as in 2 feet or two feet low. I blew the bottom rail of my target off aiming at the top one. he swore up and down it was me. Till I pulled out my kimber and shot 8 in the 10 ring then took his 1911 and put 8 in the ten ring. Then took my Neos and put 10 in the 10 ring with the week hand.
     
  19. diggsbakes

    diggsbakes New Member

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    I'm also gonna say that if you are shooting that consistently "off-target" with that one gun and you're shooting just fine with other similar guns/triggers/sights, then you gotta blame the sights.

    Any bad habit I've ever had in my shooting life has traveled from gun to gun. That is one of the (if not THE) reason I like to set up a .22 in a matching configuration for many of my other "business" firearms.

    As far as your original question about a laser. . . I strongly believe that you should be proficient with the irons every firearms you own, especially one that is to be used for personal/home defense. A laser is great to add as a night time aid to give you a speed/sight advantage. However, your iron sights never run out of batteries or become damaged from a drop.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2010