To +1... or not to +1... i got a question

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by theferg2000, Nov 28, 2010.

  1. theferg2000

    theferg2000 New Member

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    So i have been trying to dispel some fears of some family and friends related to firearms. In teaching them how a auto hand gun works, i have explained the magazine being in the gun as more of a "storage" place for your ammo.

    I got to thinking though, is it "possible" i.e. could happen within reason, that a gun could somehow some way fire with nothing in the chamber, but a fully loaded mag in? (and i am not talking you accidentally catch the slide on something and rack it). Has anyone ever heard of any accidental shooting where the gun was carried in this state?

    Also add in if you do carry full mag +1 and why you think it is worth the added risk. I do not carry it cocked and locked, as i am just too weary of an accident with my little ones, or ANYONE for that matter. But i have a compact .40 that is 6 +1. So i would love one more round.
     
  2. CA357

    CA357 New Member Supporter

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    Some pistols are designed to be carried cocked and locked. The 1911 is a perfect example, the Browning Hi Power is another. If the pistol has the capability of being carried that way, then carry it that way. That's how it was intended to be carried.

    I'm in Sacramento, CA and the chance of me getting a CCW are as good as getting the Snow-Cone franchise in Hades, so I don't carry. However, at home loaded pistols are cocked and locked. That means +1, with a round in the chamber.

    A pistol that doesn't have a round in the chamber has no chance of the firing pin striking the primer of a round even if dropped. The possibility of a round going off if the pistol is dropped without a round chambered is slim and none.

    I am not a firearms expert and don't even play one on TV, but I feel this is sound knowledge.
     

  3. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    the added risk is not having a loaded weapon when something happens.

    if you have children and the gun isnt on your person it should be locked until you can properly train your kiddos in firearm safety
     
  4. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    I don’t dumb down my EDC to be safe, I carry it in Condition One and only.
    When I safely draw it from my holster it will be extremely dangerous as I blow the dirtbag’s heart out!

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    If you carry a 1911 or BHP in any form other than Cocked & Locked (Condition 1) you are in a state of false security. The heart-beat it takes to rack that round may be your last.

    Very few people can be totally ruthless, it takes more strength than one can imagine....
    Those that can’t get berated by Yoda and become politicians.

    Please read this:
    Read this before you decide to carry!
     
  5. CA357

    CA357 New Member Supporter

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  6. theferg2000

    theferg2000 New Member

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    I have rarely carried my .45 1911, just because it is not something that i could conceal carry very often. I do keep it cocked and locked in the small quick open hand gun safe for home protection.

    But my carry guns in the past have all been compact autos (mostly .380, 9, ,40). I just got a Taurus PT740 (.40) and i dont keep one in the chamber (and have not in the past). I keep it on me all the time even at home (home invasions, and for anything else). It goes in the handgun safe at night with the 1911.

    What do you think about not going +1 with the compacts? How do you know which guns are designed for it, is there a rule, or just reading the manual.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
  7. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    +1, ALWAYS.

    You must NEVER be afraid of your gun.

    Respect yes, fear....don't load it!

    You carry a gun to be ready, needing to load it is NOT ready.
     
  8. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    1. I know of no gun that was NOT designed to be carried loaded, with the possible exception of the old style Colt/Ruger SINGLE ACTION revolvers, that should not have hammer resting on a loaded chamber. Modern DA revolvers, modern autos, etc, are intended to be carried loaded.

    2. Learn to keep yer booger hook off'n the bangswitch until yer ready to shoot. (translation- you finger should not be inside of the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot.

    3. A firearm with an empty chamber can no more fire than a car with no gasoline can start up and run down the highway.

    4. Yes, a magazine is where ammo is stored. The name comes from the French word for "storehouse".

    5. An unloaded firearm is a poorly designed club. Remember Barney Fife?

    6. With the exception of time outs in the hospital, I have carried pretty much every day since 1968. Have not had a firearm decide to shoot without me telling it to.
     
  9. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    the handgun or rifle or is only as safe as the person wielding it. i keep my self defense guns loaded with one in the chamber and full mags. 1911 and AR its a flick of the safety and ready to roll. my little pocket rocket 380 ppk copy bersas one in the chamber hammer down safety off as they are double action and intended to be carried that way.
     
  10. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    As always, C3 has nailed another one...
     
  11. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Barney had to resort to other ways to catch them BG's!

    Having just one bullet never stopped him...he was indeed, a deadly weapon! ;)

    Fife Chronicles 2
     
  12. theferg2000

    theferg2000 New Member

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    I didn't need a translation - i got Irish blood in me :D!!
    Ok, i NEVER thought i would carry this way. But you guys (everyone in this thread) have convinced me -

    What i ask for from anyone that want to, is any extra reminders on safety you guys would care to offer me. I know it is all in here, and i am going to start digging. Any old threads, or whatever you would be kind enough to throw this threads way.

    I am thinking i may need to look into one of those compact 1911's (suggestions welcome).

    Tomorrow i am going to look into some more safety classes for me and my wife(suggestions welcome).

    I have also seen online gun courses - there was one place that offered sort of like a "gun degree" do you guys put any merit in those?

    Thanks Again Guys:- TheFIFE2000 - and quit picking on gramps!!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
  13. kyleytxrialover

    kyleytxrialover New Member

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    i have 3

    1911s when i got the first one i was a little nervous so i carried c&l with nothing in the chamber for about a week lo and behold, no hammer fall so now only c&l they are my edc 2 full size and a 4in
     
  14. theferg2000

    theferg2000 New Member

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    Already came across another thought where they said "I guarantee the BG will have one in the chamber"

    One more question to add. On a DA, do you keep the safety off? - Referring to Condition 2 (non 1911) - if that even makes sense. Are the conditions only for 1911?
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
  15. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    Nudists might disagree.
    ;)
     
  16. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    The "Conditions" may have originated around the time of the 1911 design, but they do not apply just to that type of weapon.

    Condition 1 - Round loaded in the chamber, the weapon is cocked or primed and ready to fire, but it has a safety in place to keep it from going off on it's own. Ideally this should be a manual safety that the user has to intentionally switch off.

    Condition 2 - Round is loaded in the chamber, hammer is down and safety is off. To fire one must pull back the hammer like you would see a cowboy do when he pulls and fires. Striker fired weapons have a mixed bag of people saying you can/should and you cannot/should not carry them in condition 2. I don't like striker fired weapons, so I don't own one. I never carry in anything OTHER than condition one, because it's the way JMB intended me to carry. :)

    Condition 3 - No round in place, magazine is in place, any safety is off. You have to pull, rack the slide to chamber the round, then shoot. I believe it is the Israeli's that have perfected this to prevent against accidental/negligent discharges and they are VERY effective at it. They also teach an advanced way of point shooting that aids in their accuracy, so it's difficult to say if this version would be viable or advisable to someone that wasn't trained in their method of doing things.

    Condition 4 - The never talked about, bastard cousin of Condition 3 that I personally think was invented by someone with too much time on their hands and an honest attempt to please both the people who want to get the weapon in play fast, but also NEVER want to worry about an AD/ND. In Condition 4, your weapon is loaded with a full magazine, but the weapon is cocked, hammer/striker is all the way back and the safety is off. When you draw, it takes MUCH less pressure to re-rack the slide and chamber the first round, thus you have a blend of Condition 3 and Condition 2. If you ever finger the trigger, there is no round in the chamber to go off, but you don't need the extra strength and positive grip to exert the full ( est. 16 pounds ) of force to rack the slide in that moment of life or death.

    Consider the safety devices of YOUR weapon and decide what YOU are comfortable and feel safe doing. Don't rely on us to tell you what is going to work for you, it might not.

    I prefer Condition One and only Condition One, because if the time comes, my goal is to go from "Yo Homie, is that my briefcase?" to SMOKING is an instant.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmKR6evZRQQ]YouTube - Collateral[/ame]
     
  17. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    my opinions:

    1. i reaalllllly like my colt new agent. if you dont mind trench sights new agent. if you must have standard sights colt defender. colts are still the best 1911 on the market hands down in my opinion.

    2. damn good idea on training i highly recomend 1on 1 training. i do NOT recomend you and the wife take the class at the same time. husband/wife husband/husband wife/wife/ bf/gf brother/sister friend/friend combos can lead to distractions when info is being handed out. never take shooting classes with people you know. i used to teach small arms instruction in the army and i sent my wife to a safety class for initial training and all i do is reinforce when i see a bad habit pop up. i have refined her skills with rifle pistol and shotgun but its not easy teaching a loved one or taking a course with them.

    3. online stuff isnt worth the pixels its displayed on.
     
  18. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey- that sounds GREAT! Along the same lines, I am taking an on-line Surgery Course. Say- don't suppose you still have your appendix, do ya? Can help you with that- got my on-line certificate as a surgin- uh, surging- uh sturgeon- ah hell- YOU know what I mean........:p
     
  19. 7point62

    7point62 Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Carry a 1911 in Condition 1 or 2 assumes that you know WTF you are doing. Carry in Condition 3 assumes that you are A) afraid of an AD, or B) you've spent years practicing draw and rack and can do it as fast as Cond 1 or 2. My 2 c
     
  20. pagj17

    pagj17 New Member

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    I carry mine unloaded, hammer back safety off,
    because California is... unkind, to gun owners.