Tinkering with your AR's Timing- Simple Buffer and Springs Swaps.

Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by AgentTikki, Mar 19, 2012.

  1. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

    3,496
    0
    0
    I know, you just want to reduce the recoil on your 5.56 AR15 so that you can Mozambique that paper zombie in under 0.55 seconds flat right? I mean 5.56 has hardly any recoil, its all about the muzzle control for those fast follow up shots right?

    Well, let me tell you the best way to reduce recoil is to buy a good muzzle brake/compensator. Tinkering with your timing will help some but its a very subtle difference. It is difficult to tell the difference between running a regular carbine buffer and a H buffer. Conversely putting on a brake to replace that old A2 flashider is about as subtle as shoe-horning a 350ci v8 with a straight pipe in a Honda Civic. Yeah, you're gonna hear it and feel it.

    Special note: this is for an AR15 carbine set up. You can play with a rifle setup, the concept is the same but the parts availability, buffer tube, spring length, spring rate, buffer weights and buffer lengths are different. I don't advise you mixing carbine and rifle buffer parts when tuning. It is possible to swap entire systems over tho. For example you can use a rifle buffer setup on a carbine, or a carbine system on a rifle. Just don't mix and match individual parts between the two setups, unless you want to buy an adapter to make everything work.

    Rule #1 Don't change the timing from the stock configuration before testing it out first.
    Most manufacturers spend considerable time and effort developing the gas systems for their products. Keep your AR all original and keep all the parts so that you can fall back to it if things go awry.

    Rule #2 If you are building a AR, get a regular carbine spring and buffer first. Buy different buffers and springs to tune your setup second.

    Rule #3 Thoroughly test your end results After you're done, put 1 round in your magazine and shoot it. See if the bolt locks back. Do this at least 10 times. If you system is short stroking, it won't lock back the bolt at the end of the mag.

    If your end result includes the desire to have your AR eat everything, tune it to use the weakest ammo, ie Wolf or Tula. What you are basically doing is increasing the reciprocating mass of your gas system in order to slow down and lengthen the cyclical rate. Slowing down your system, will in effect smooth it out, reducing felt recoil, by spreading the recoil over a longer period of time. Spring rates work a little differently but your goals are the same. Changing the buffer or spring is the most cost effective way to do this. An small added side benefit of increasing the mass of your system is bolt bounce reduction, but that usually is more beneficial for FA applications.

    Another thing you can also do is use a FA carrier. The BCG is a more expensive part, so I don't really think its all that cost effective if you already have SA carrier. Also the difference in mass is minimal so it won't have too much of an impact on your system. A more worthwhile benefit of using FA carriers is the shroud that protects the firing pin from the hammer as the system goes out of battery.

    If you tune your system for higher power, like say M193 / XM193. Your AR will work really well with M193, but probably will not feed the weaker stuff reliably. Now, I can only think of one good reason to tune your gas system to a specific type of ammo is for competition. But for competition, you would be better served going with an adjustable gas block and a light weight system (i.e. JP Enterprises LMOS). With an adjustable gas block you can tune how much gas goes into your system to ensure positive feeding and an lightweight bcg and buffer system to ensure super fast rates of fire. Speed is everything in competition, every split second counts.

    A Word of Caution: Please don't start off by changing you system's timing before you even have a chance to shoot it. As I've said before, people take a lot of time testing out their systems so a lot of thought goes into gas port sizing and buffer weights before it goes to market. Putting a H2 buffer on a system right off the bat might just make your AR15 a single shot special! I mean, wouldn't it suck if you had to yank your charging handle every shot?

    So don't change / tune / tinker / swap anything until you have a known, tested, good working system first. Changing your buffer or spring is just fine tuning, you don't necessarily need it for most applications nor will it make a huge impact on your shooting.






    A little reference for all those out there that can't help but tinker (myself included)

    Weights and prices are approximate.
    Carbine buffer 3.0 oz approx $15
    H buffer 3.8 oz approx $20
    Spikes ST-T2 4.3 oz approx $30
    H2 buffer 4.6 oz approx $30
    H3 buffer 5.4 oz approx $40
    RRA 9mm 5.6 oz approx $25
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2012
  2. jasonlarue1013

    jasonlarue1013 New Member

    258
    0
    0
    What a great write up. Even being a noob it made a ton of sense. Been shopping buffer kits today. Glad I read this first

    Now let's hear something about charging handles!
     

  3. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

    3,496
    0
    0
    BCM Vltor Gunfighter. The only real one needed / wanted. I prefer Mod 3 for use with big paws and gloves, also the bigger latch helps clear any optics you might have.

    Now if you go suppressed you can Mod the gunfighter or go with a PRI Gas buster.
     
  4. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

    4,026
    0
    0
    Good write-up.

    As you get to know your AR small changes are easier to feel.

    I've found the VLTOR A5 buffer system to be very nice. It makes a slight difference in recoil bit is more or less a reliability enhancer.

    Thread on a comp like the one offered by BattleComp goes nice w/ the A5.

    I would like to try Spikes T3.

    There is such a thing as to heavy though.
     
  5. jasonlarue1013

    jasonlarue1013 New Member

    258
    0
    0
    Great stuff thanks. Perfect!! I'm big boy also with big grippers. Thinking of RR winter trigger guard for same reason, otherwise the magpul or spikes guards. Being big handed do you go with larger trigger guard?
     
  6. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

    3,496
    0
    0
    I do agree with you on the too heavy part, tuning is all about trade offs, and using a super heavy buffer will slow things done considerably. But in the context of this tuning its I just want people to understand that too much can can adverse affects, and test before tuning. I mean I see too often people want to change their timing with no good reason why, most time they haven't even shot their AR yet.

    I do think the A5 is an interesting design solution. Haven't found a need to have one yet, and kind of a pricey solution. Have you tried using it on a suppressed AR? It seems to me that its greatest asset is its versatility, so going from suppressed to non and back it should work well for either role.
     
  7. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

    21,833
    2
    0
    +1 on not tinkering with the timing. Get a comp that works!



    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgmgq4BNFOg&feature=fvwrel[/ame]
     
  8. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

    3,496
    0
    0
    Hey now, that muzzle seems to be diving a bit...or is it just me......


    I would agree with you MJ, the more you become intimate with anything, the more you will notice little differences. This is why people tune their systems! But honestly I have to say, in my personal experience, there's not too much difference when swapping a H and Carbine buffer. I do think that most will feel the difference between a H2 and carbine tho. But say swapping a FA and SA carrier, I don't think anyone's gonna feel that.


    As for a trigger guard, I wear a xlarge glove, and the standard trigger guard works for me gloved or not. Mind you I'm not using super thick winter gloves (its hot out here in Cali), but I actually prefer the standard trigger guard and the Magpul over my KAC winter trigger guard due to the gap by rear roll pin. The edges of the gap chafe my middle finger when shooting without gloves. Small thing but annoying none the less. I do like the style of the KAC tho, and still think it looks bad ass. Sorry don't have any experience with the RRA guard. Trigger guards are just a little bling to spruce things up a bit.
     
  9. jasonlarue1013

    jasonlarue1013 New Member

    258
    0
    0
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2012
  10. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

    4,026
    0
    0
  11. jasonlarue1013

    jasonlarue1013 New Member

    258
    0
    0
    Yeah like there stuff...seems like it would boil down to the Surefire MB556K $149, Battle Comp 1.0 $139, and Battle Comp 2.0 $159 as of current reading
     
  12. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

    4,026
    0
    0
    I would really like to try the MB556K. Word is it's loud as hell though. It really doesn't bother me but it might the old timers at the range. All of a sudden it seems even more attractive. :D
     
  13. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

    3,496
    0
    0
    lol.

    Btw my friend with the FSC TTO, ran out and bought the Surefire after shooting a mag through it. The Battlecomp seems like its a real good compromise between flash, recoil, sound, and muzzle compensation, I've yet to try it out tho.
     
  14. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

    4,026
    0
    0
    You should try it. I'm going to try and get a hold of a Surefire for tomorrow.
     
  15. cbibb

    cbibb New Member

    128
    0
    0
    Has any body think of a bolt weight Dave Tubbs makes a bolt weight we built our own turned out a carrier end put tungsten carbide 1/2 in drill blank in it know it shoots with less recoil longer lock time and cycles all loads almost like between 22mag and 22hornet on recoil real fast follow up shots great for rapid fire during match Dave Tubbs version is around 55.00 also check out Creedmore sports also give it a try you will be shocked
     
  16. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

    7,551
    1
    0
    Another nice write up AT! BCG/buffer mass is a question for many of us and trial and error is the best answer. Maybe we should all list combos that work well for us so I'll start:

    Daniel Defense 16" LW midlength with A2 flash hider, DD M16 BCG and BCM H buffer/spring. No shortstroking with Wolf.
    ArmaLite 16" HBar midlength with A2 flash hider, ArmaLite AR-15 BCG and BCM H2 buffer/spring. No shortstroking with Wolf.


    Since the ArmaLite has the AR-15 carrier that weighs about 0.5 oz less than the M16/FA, I jumped on the H2 buffer over the H as a test and it seems to be the sweet spot. I've tried the H2 in the DD and do shortstroke occasionally with Wolf so it's too much weight. I suspect the Spikes ST-T2 would function since its weight is between the H and H2 but haven't bothered.

    Again, neither of mine have a comp, just the standard flash hider, I'm one of those old timers at the range, MJ mentioned. :D
     
  17. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

    3,496
    0
    0
    Good Idea Q,

    I would like to say tho that this should only be taken with a grain of salt, as there could be differences between individual ARs of the the same make and model.

    Unfortunately I don't really use Wolf so I don't test haven't tested it out. PMC .223 bronze is the lowest powered stuff that I use. Most Russian ammo is banned from the ranges I frequent so, I don't really buy what I can't use T_T
     
  18. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

    4,026
    0
    0
    BS. Old timer my ass. You seem more progressive and open minded then a lot of the kids in my classes. Nice to see you around btw.
     
  19. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

    7,551
    1
    0
    Thanks, I think, but don't ever call me a liberal! :p
     
  20. mjkeat

    mjkeat New Member

    4,026
    0
    0
    There's enough of those as is. You'd be surprised just how closed minded those young liberals can be regardless of how open minded they claim to be.