The Russia/Georgia conflict and the United States?

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by huckleberry, Aug 13, 2008.

  1. huckleberry

    huckleberry New Member

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    I was listening to President Bush this morning on the conflict with Russia and Georgia. It got me thinking about what it would be like if our military got involved and began to defend georgia. Would it be an all out war? Would Russia pull out? Would other countries get involved? What would change with the War On Terror? Ok guys, what do you think?
     
  2. ScottG

    ScottG New Member

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    It's really hard to say.

    If the Russian army is really weak and undersupplied and using aged equipment, they really wouldn't stand a chance against any western power. I don't know anything about their tactics, but human wave attacks and rolling armor just might not be successful against our and western Europe's air power.

    At this time of supposed cease fire, I don't see that we can really do anything about getting South Ossetia back for Georgia. It's probably a lost cause. It was perfidious planning by Russia to set it all up, but it's a fait accompli. Not much we can do I think to make them leave SO.

    However, with reports of advancing Russian troops headed into Georgia proper, I believe President Bush is right in stating that Putin must remove the troops. Whether Europe will stand with us or not in demanding this remains to be seen. There are so many cowardly politicians who refuse to do anything because it might hurt their positions - and that is their supreme motivator, not standing up for right. Seeking accommodation isn't completely bad, but we already know that the intentions towards the other former Soviet satellite countries are not good. There has already been talk by Russian officials about "punishing" Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and other states for their condemnation of the attacks on Georgia. If we don't stand strong on the "extracurricular" activities of the invading troops, Eastern Europe will be again bullied and silenced by Russian menacing.

    Now, I'm not mil, or ex-mil, or involved in intelligence for the government so I don't know everything that happens and why. I do however, know the difference between good and evil. It seems very few people in power want to stand for good these days and against evil. So many sell outs: Oil for Food, Iranian nukes, no border controls, etc. We need a nation of founders as our leaders and except for a few courageous voices we have a government class of venal, grasping, rent seeking, pettifogging, useless, corrupt thugs who love to engage in every vice and immorality imaginable, and they arrogantly demand that we sacrifice while they do nothing but engorge themselves on our production.

    If we and Europe do stand strong and force Russia back, then perhaps the terror supporting countries might see us as that proverbial strong horse that they like to back. A coup such as that for President Bush may turn the fence sitters into at least grudging allies in eliminating terrorists and their support networks. But it ain't gonna happen if we jaw jaw jaw without the possibility of coercion on the table. Churchill said Jaw jaw is preferable to war war, but if there's no credible threat of war war, jaw jaw is just blowing hot air. Good enough to blow up a balloon, but worthless in putting out flames.
     

  3. Water-Man

    Water-Man New Member

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    We should not get involved and we are not in any position to do so!
     
  4. ScottG

    ScottG New Member

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    Please elaborate to aid in our discussion.
     
  5. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    If Russia is just going for an energy grab by taking control of Georgia's natural gas and oil pipeline(s) to the Mediterranean, it may be very bad news for Europe. Russia's economy isn't doing well, and Putin's plan may be to squeeze anyone he can for more money.

    As for whether or not we could take on Russia given our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq, that's a good question. Will Russia take over the Ukraine next? Would China get involved? Would any European nations put up any sizable forces to help us?
     
  6. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    Georgia has been a strong ally to the US in our fight with Iraq. For such a small nation to partner with Democracy is commendable and a welcome change, especially considering their proximity to the biggest bully on the block. A war with Russia would not be a good thing, particularly at the present moment, but Putin certainly knew what our response would be. This will be a test of face-saving which will demonstrate our commitment to, or alienation of, our allies. We almost blew it with Taiwan, I hope we don't show weakness now. Russia is testing our resolve, much the way they did during the Cuban Missile crisis. Any show of weakness on the part of the US will be a severe blow to our standing as a world leader, and will probably embolden our enemies. If this country ever needed another Ronald Reagan, it is now.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2008
  7. Squirrel

    Squirrel New Member

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    I think we need to draw a line somewhere, not nessesarily hith Georgia, but somewhere. Like Ukraine. Russia we may not be able to send infantry, but we probobly can send heavy bombers, and a significant part of our navy to pressure Russia with. It would realy help if we could get these countries into NATO.
     
  8. Slickrick214

    Slickrick214 New Member

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    To me I think it would turn into a WWIII if the US got involved in the war. I heard today that Russia has now turned their eyes to parts of Ukraine where they're threatening to invade. History always repeats itself and unless we can learn from our mistakes in the past we are doomed to repeat them in the future. This is like WWI. It started with one big country and one small country. What was supposed to be an isolated war turned into a world war when European alliances screwed everything and made it worse. If we get tied up in alliances we're going to get pulled into a huge war. We should also learn from the cold war. We can't make the same mistakes we made back then. History always repeats itself and unless we can learn from our mistakes in the past we are doomed to repeat them in the future.
     
  9. JWIII

    JWIII New Member

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    +1... I think China would back Russia in this conflict; if that happened most certainly a World War would erupt.

    However I do think would we should help Georgia, they are our allies.
     
  10. Slickrick214

    Slickrick214 New Member

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    In this case the best thing to do might be to do nothing at all.
     
  11. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Why? (I'm not challenging you...just honestly curious to know.)

    The U.S. has, by far, the most troops in Iraq. Next up is Great Britain. Who's after Great Britain in the number of troops helping us in Iraq? Georgia. Little, tiny, insignificant, stinkin' Georgia. It seems like a hell of a kick in the shorts to have them pony up disproportionately (relative to other, much larger countries) to help out in Iraq, then ignore them in their time of need.

    Then again, as others point out, escalating the confrontation would almost certainly bring other unfriendly countries like China onto the scene and it could erupt into something very big.

    But do we shy away from it just because it could result in WWIII? Does the size and scope of a war determine whether or not we participate? Or do we stand on principle and come to the aid of an ally, which Georgia truly seems to be?

    Personally, I'd like to see the European Union step up to the plate for a change, come to the aid of Georgia, and tell Putin to pound salt.
     
  12. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    The biggest mistake we never learned from, was letting politicians make the decisions. Nobody listened to Patton when he wanted to march into Russia 63 years ago! If we had listened to Patton there would never have been a cold war or a world as we know it today.
     
  13. huckleberry

    huckleberry New Member

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    Any show of weakness on the part of the US will be a severe blow to our standing as a world leader, and will probably embolden our enemies. If this country ever needed another Ronald Reagan, it is now.[/QUOTE]

    I agree 100,000,000 percent. We need to let the world know that this is still America and the majority of us are not left wing sissys regardless of what we look like on tv. I hope we don't have to get involved with Russia, I think we should support our allies, but I hope it doesn't come to that. If it does though, I hope we see the same America that we saw in World War 2. If not then God have mercy on us all because this cry baby liberal bull sh** that my generation is doing is not gonna cut it in an all out World War 3.
     
  14. Slickrick214

    Slickrick214 New Member

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    Because To me I think it would turn into a WWIII if the US got involved in the war. We can't get tied up in alliances we're going to get pulled into a huge war. Again looking at history it was alliances that doomed European countries to WWI and the same thing could happen if we help Georgia. I also believe that there will be a WWIII and that war will destory man kind with nuclear and chemical weapons. Call me nuts but I believe in the people who predicted the World Wars. After WWI the Europeans beleived there wouldn't be another war like that for a long time. Political scientist and some politicans though predicated that Germany would never stand for the Versailles treaty and there would be a WWII, Europeans ignored them and what happend WWII. The Cold War isn't over it only just begun.
     
  15. Water-Man

    Water-Man New Member

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    RL357Mag...Some might argue that we are the 'biggest bully', not Russia. Whatever! It would be folly to get into a military conflict with Russia at the present time. We are over-extended as it is and it could get worse if things escalate with Iran. It would also be foolish to depend on NATO for help if recent history is any indication. Although you may not personnaly consider it, I would like to think that most Americans would also consider the hypocrisy factor.
     
  16. Slickrick214

    Slickrick214 New Member

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    I agree and I should have put that in my post above to bkt.
     
  17. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    Attitudes such as these were abundant during WWII also. Fortunately back then, "the Greatest Generation" took it upon themselves to stand up for what they believed in and the principles this country was founded on. We were more ill-prepared to fight and win THAT war, than we are WWIII. The problem is the attitudes of the people in this country. Since the end of WWII we have been growing an attitude of "secular globalism". Generations of children have been inculcated with the propoganda of the Liberal Left's "New World Order" from the Elementary School level to the University level. The Hippy generation has grown up and is in charge. With the spineless self-serving cry-babies in this country now, we could not hold a match to what my father's generation accomplished. We are a defeatest nation full of self-loathing, complacent people who care nothing about anyone but themselves. Live and Let Live has replaced "the greater good" and "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". Look at the majority of America's youth as an example. Look at the trends and look at TV. Look at the immorality and God-less attitudes of the "me" generation and it becomes perfectly clear why this country is already past the point of no return, and why the rest of the world see's us as a nation of "has-beens". We are still a powerful country only because we have been living off the dividends of generations past, and the rest of the world knows and see's this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2008
  18. RL357Mag

    RL357Mag New Member

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    Yes...and they would be the Ultra-Left wing Obama generation of Soc!alist a-holes that will ultimately flush what's left of this "Democracy" down the sewer.
     
  19. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Your premise seems to be "we must avoid war, particularly a big war, at any cost". There are worse things than war, IMO.

    Would you rather they were doomed to be conquered by Germany? Which was better: submitting to a conquering force, or fighting for survival?

    Maybe.

    Eh...in the grand scheme of things, Russia doesn't concern me too much. China does, but they can't afford to piss off their main customer (the US).

    Unaccounted-for NBC weapons does concern me, and coupled with wide-open borders, we could really be screwed at some point.
     
  20. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    That argument would be pretty friggin' weak!

    It boggles the mind to call the US a bully when it has expended more blood and treasure to come to the aid of others -- yet has asked for nothing in return! -- than any other country in the history of man.

    How often do we rub elbows with our Russian friends when we're helping out in a disaster situation? Not too often.

    Who broke international law and screwed over starving people in northern Iraq in the U.N. Oil-for-Food scandal? Russia, China, France and Germany.

    Can you cite examples of Russia's benevolence and also cite ways in which the US has been corrupt and/or engaged in gross violations of international law?