The Chart?

Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by cpttango30, Dec 8, 2010.

  1. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    What is the deal with the dam M4 chart?

    I have looked at it and it just lines out what each brand offers. So many people put so much stock in it I can't understand why.

    I am glad that it is not talked about so much here.
     
  2. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    What chart are you talking about?

    The only thing I know of that maked me want an M4 upper was the feed ramps. I know for many they aren't even an issue but if the M4 ramps are more reliable with different types of ammo why not go with them. I don't get into the piston ARs like some....just don't see an advantage.
     

  3. dog2000tj

    dog2000tj New Member

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    From what I've read the M4 Chart is a comparison chart of Mil Spec criteria on major manufacturer's Ar's. From posts I've seen here and on AR15.com the debate gets pretty heated between those in favor and those against.

    I can understand the Military's need for certain requirements but for me I doubt my rifles would need to meet such criteria. Name any 10-12 manufacturer's of the top of your head and each one of them are producing top quality rifles, components and accessories. Add in your own personal preferences/requirements and I doubt you could go wrong.

    Take for example all the folks here that have undertaken building their own AR's. Since I have been a member here I haven't heard/seen 1 person end up with a poor quality rifle or one that doesn't perform well. All those have been achieved through research and some great advice given from knowledgeable folks here.
     
  4. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    dog pretty much nailed it.

    It's a Grand Wizard pissing chart. If you have one of the models listed, you get to piss all over those of us who do not. :rolleyes:

    There have been changes to the military specs over the years, for obvious reasons, since the inception of Stoner's design.

    These days, there really are only about 3 or 4 true "AR Receiver" makers out there that run the line and stamp RRA or Bushmaster or Colt on the side and ship them out to the respective clients.

    With the state of the high end machinery, like CNC that was cutting edge way back when, being so affordable and productive now, it's much easier to mix and match parts from different sources and still assemble a model that will work just fine.

    Take any one of those listed on the chart, put it against a Sabre Defense or a Larue Tactical and see who is laughing the hardest.

    In my mind, the chart is about as relevant as Encyclopedia Brittanica door to door salesmen in this day and age. :rolleyes:

    JD
     
  5. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    This chart.

    M4 CHART

    to me it says if you can't drop $1400+ on an AR then your scum. I put little to no stock in it really.
     
  6. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Mwahahahah - Average Street Price for a Sabre Defence $1200. Ha hah! Maybe if you want their stripped down bare bones model. Try pricing one that matches the criteria they laid out.

    Seriously, that list is so old it makes Cane's gradeschool days seem like they just happened. :D
     
  7. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    Ok, I'll be devil's advocate, though that's not really the proper term since I am a fan of the M4 Chart. I'd say forget it if you've already bought your AR - but if you're ready to buy or are choosing parts for a build, you're crazy not to study the chart. Lots of good information there and it will help you make a better decision.

    Take a look at cpttango30's link and ignore everything but the Bolt Carrier Group - look at the difference between BCM, Daniel Defence, Colt then DPMS and other lower end models. If I were buying a BCG I'd sure rather buy a $130 BCM or DD that hits it out of the park with 6 out of 6 important specs instead of paying $10-20 less for one that has 0 out of 6. When you're talking a high stress part like the bolt/extractor, Carpenter 158 steel, shot peening, HP/MPI testing and a milspec extractor are things you want to have especially if you're LE, military or just want a solid defensive rifle.

    I agree lots of people do strut around that they have a Tier 1 AR but blame them, not the chart. Also you can buy a BCM rifle that scores at the top for under $1000 so why buy Bushmaster, etc? Again if you already bought don't let it get to you but if you're in the market there's a lot to learn there.

    You can use the chart to improve your AR too. I wanted a spare BCG so bought DD to put in my ArmaLite upper. This plus a couple other small improvements raised my chart "score" from 10 to 16. I admit the rifle was reliable before and after but I feel good about addressing those weaknesses.

    It's true the last chart update was about a year ago but I understand there's a major revision in the works.
     
  8. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Okay, since you took the "FOR" position Quentin, and I value your reasons, let me play Devil's Advocate....

    First off, how many rounds is the AVERAGE AR buyer going to be putting through their weapon??

    I mean really. C'mon. These guys aren't doing 10,000 rounds a weekend, they aren't training 4 days a week after work and they aren't going through barrels and gas tubes like changes of underware.

    If you build your own weapon, as so many have, and you do the maintanence on that weapon, then you should be able to see if there is wear and tear on your components. You should see that things are not as they were when you put them in. You should be inspecting for items that are just plain not up to snuff.

    "MOST" proponents of that chart, not including you, talk as if you don't have a "16" score rifle, it's going to leave you dead in a ditch with a zombie munching on your buttcheeks.

    If the chart is going to be classified as an information or learning tool, then fine. Call it what it is then.

    Here is a chart that tests many features that you may, or many not, want to consider on your rifle purchase or build.

    Now, if a $250-$300 BCG group that was hand fitted by Swiss watch makers who chose a new profession makes you worry less about the oncoming Zombie Apocolypse, then have it. But if the guy next to you just wants to have a basic BCG and does good maint on his weapon after he is done shooting it, don't make him feel like trash because of it.

    The M4 Chart is not the Holy Grail of the AR world that Soooooo many make it out to be, especially on Tacticool Forums where everybody has call signs and Spec Op clearances.
     
  9. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I thought zombies went for the brains, or are you commenting on the current location of the poor "non-tier 1" AR owner's cranium?
    :p
    And here i was thinking Tier 1 was a furniture store specializing in wicker wares.
     
  10. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    That was the subtle reference yes. The person that bought the lower class rifle has crapola for brains and when it jams, the zombies would be munching away. Thanks for ruining it in 3 minutes. Jerk. :p

    3 Bears I set upon Your House.
     
  11. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I have taken steps, kitteh steps. :p
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    That is a fat orange cat at the bottom of the tree, leering up at the silly ursine oaf.
     
  12. DrumJunkie

    DrumJunkie New Member

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    Wow...My rifle does not have one part on the list...I'd feel bad if I didn't have so much fun with it. :)
     
  13. Biohazard2

    Biohazard2 Active Member

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    Funny that when all is said a done, no one mentioned resell value.
    There are only one or two on the list that hold the top resale numbers.
    When one reads the post in these site's what name brands are they asking for help with?
    Buy once, cry once.
    Get a Colt.
     
  14. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    You want to buy once, cry once ( for awhile ) and have a ton of resale value you will pony up and get a Dave Lauck Production Model.

    You want to mortage your first born, call him and have him build one to your specs.

    Then we can talk about who has the best stick on the range. It will be a REAL short vote... LOL
     
  15. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    I will take a group size match with my RRA against any tier 1 rifle from that list.

    As for resale value. I don't care what it is as I never get rid of a gun. If I can't afford a new gun without selling another then Tango ain't gettin a new gun.

    I didn't even look at that chart before I purchased my AR. I must be super lucky because my AR will split hairs on a gnats butt at 100 yards.

    Do I care that my bolt is not shotpeened or mpi tested not really. The most shooting that thing is going to see is sitting on a bench when I take my mancation to South Dakota in a few years Prairie Doggin.
     
  16. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    Well I'm sure not saying dump what you already have, but anyone looking to build or buy could do worse than spend an hour figuring out what the chart really says. You can buy off the low end of the chart to save money and likely will do fine but some of us may want to aim higher. Not a big deal as it's your choice and we're all on the same team. Also maintenance and training matter more than which brand we have.
     
  17. Biohazard2

    Biohazard2 Active Member

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    I did not mean to say that Colt was the best, I'm saying that if you buy one of the top shelf makers, you or who ever get's your **** when you die, will get more money out of them.
    There are some junky built AR's around.
     
  18. dog2000tj

    dog2000tj New Member

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    See this is exactly what I mean when people discuss this chart, it's a shame really. :( Did I come across the chart when I ventured into building my first AR? Sure. But after looking at all the info and then looking at the subsequent cost I couldn't justify a $1400-$1600 Colt versus a similar set up from Stag at under $1k.

    A lot of folks that want to get into the AR platform don't want to or can't afford to lay out $1500 and then some. And if you think about the recreational shooter/hunter why would they, especially when they can get into an AK platform for $500-$600? Look at some of the folks that choose a caliber based on costs? A rifle is the same thing, what can one afford versus what they want to do?

    Sure the chart has useful info but that doesn't not make it the end all be all of AR building. Unless you are in combat on a daily basis I see no need to use/abuse one's AR to the point of Military standards.

    The rifle doesn't make the shooter, practice does ;)
     
  19. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    A BCM is about as good as it gets on the chart and can be built for under $1000, just like a Stag or Bushmaster. Even Colts can be found not much over $1000.

    I'm looking at about $520 for a BCM midlength upper to drop on my S&W M&P-15 lower that cost about $250 to complete. Then add a genuine Cerro Forge carry handle I got for about $35 off ebay (that I cut down to expose the rail). Then a sling and magazines... All in all it's a great time to be buying or building an AR! :)
     
  20. DrumJunkie

    DrumJunkie New Member

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    I am also thinking along the lines of I wont sell mine so resale isn't an issue. And if whoever gets it after I am gone if the sell it then they need smacked in the head for selling a rifle I thought enough of them to give it to them in the first place. :cool:

    I have a pretty cheap old shotgun that probably isn't worth what was paid for it in the 30's when it was new. But it was my Dads so I keep it clean and look at it from time to time. It's pretty neat for an old junky shotgun.;)