The Argument against all forms OTHER than Condition One

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by Dillinger, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    So, how many times has this been discussed, argued and thrown around?

    Probably a few thousand??

    Well, My Friends, I give you the definitive argument for Condition One and why it is THE condition for carry for those that understand the problem.

    http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s195/Liberator13/collateral.gif

    Take this situation and insert any of the other carry conditions with your chosen firearm.

    Notice that the shooter even flubs his initial grab for his weapon AND you can see the tug of the holster against his pants as he unleashes the weapon to get it smoking.

    What would THAT outcome be???
     
  2. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

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    This clip fully supports the necessity of carrying hot. It also supports the efficacy of point-shooting. And Mozambique drills. It can happen that damned fast.
     

  3. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    IMO, if you are not confidant, comfortable, and experienced enough in your own ability to carry and use your firearm in condition one......put it back in the damn safe.

    Jack
     
  4. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Did you notice that instead of "traditional" point shooting, he uses the Israeli method though? Arm bent at the elbow, Bicep/tricep close to the body ad aligning down the forearm through the "Y" of the web of the hand.

    I have a good friend who was a former 'Teams guy and he swears by this method for close action. He showed me his way of doing it and he was AMAZINGLY accurate at 7 yards going from gun leather to rounds on target.

    I love that scene and thought it was one of the best put on film surrounding the need to go from relaxed to full blown body dropping in a heartbeat. Kudos to one of my favorite directors Michael Mann. that guy rocks!!

    I rewatched the movie this weekend and felt the need to track down that .GIF because it really can happen that damn fast if you find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. :eek:

    I love that they left the bobble for the gun in holster in the film, that adds to the dynamics of the scene in my eyes. No one is going to get that perfect in a real world situation.....
     
  5. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    I love Mozambique drills.

    [​IMG]

    I wonder how long Cruise took to master the "look"?
     
  6. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    I no longer subscribe to the Mozambique Drill. I always did when I was younger & I practiced it a lot.

    Then I was taught Combat Focus at Valhalla and I have practiced that since then.

    Nothing wrong with Mozambique if you can shoot that well & guarantee it. I think I probably can, but I am not, was not, 100% ( 100 Percent ), sure.

    I learned that, with Combat Focus, adrenaline, light/lack of light, unfamilar settings, sweat, anticipation, everything that can happen to a person in a sudden, traumatic event don't play into that one bad/missed shot.

    I encourage everyone to train, shoot, practice with what they believe in and what they think works for them.

    For me and mine, we abide by Combat Focus.

    JD
     
  7. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

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    I suscribe to "Shoot first, and shoot a lot". You need to be in Condition One to do that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2010
  8. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper New Member

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    I usually practice Mozambique's, but am always trying new and different things.
    Care to elaborate on "Combat Focus", JD?
     
  9. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Rob Pincus, a member here, was the driving force behind Valhalla's training and Combat Focus is his baby.

    Essentially what the idea behind it is, if you haven't seen a ton of combat, if you aren't used to having a weapon in your face or a threat in your immediate future, you become "focused" on that one lone threat.

    Tunnel Vision takes over and you will probably not be able to just "snap" out of it as your sole life preserving thought is to end THAT threat that is immediately in front of you.

    It goes back to Fight or Flight programming. When the issue of fight happens, your adrenaline dumps and you want to end the threat as quickly as possible.

    In Combat Focus, as your attention is focused on that one threat, you make the most of it. You draw your weapon, you acquire that target that you are focused on, and you shoot until that threat is no longer a threat. You end that threat.

    Then you refocus on the area around you. You don't try to do a round count, you don't try to balance "did I fire 3 shots, 6 because I need more rounds" in case there are more attackers.

    Well, what if there are no other attackers and your first 3 rounds are not enough? Or you miss the head shot because the body is in motion??

    With Combat Focus, you use the bodies' natural adrenaline, your bodies' natural conditions at the time of the event. You turn that ability on your attacker and you make sure that first attacker goes down hard and stays down.

    In Combat Focus, you plan to do a tactical reload, you plan on "needing" more rounds to finish a fight, because you plan on using every round needed to put that first attacker in the dirt.

    I would HIGHLY recommend picking up Rob's book and reading it, if not taking one of his classes. It was EYE OPENING for me personally.

    JD
     

    Attached Files:

  10. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

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    I've always thought that the Mozambique would be more effective if done in reverse.
     
  11. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    I couldn't open the link.....
     
  12. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Spitty, I just tried it and it still works for me....
     
  13. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    Maybe it's something on my end. Even without seeing it, I don't know why anyone would carry in any other way then condition 1.
     
  14. MB44

    MB44 New Member

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    For sakes of argument, let's add two things to the equation :

    1) Kids and 2) Not having the option of a holster.

    Would you still carry in condition one? And if so, how would you do it ?
     
  15. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    I don't mexican carry. if I don't have a holster, the weapon will stay at home or in the car. If you can't control the weapon you don't need to have it. That applies to the time it spends on your person as well as in action.

    Why are kids even a question? If I'm carrying a weapon in a proper holster a child is not going to be able to gain access.
     
  16. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Yes. And Yes.

    First off, kids should not have immediate, unrestricted access to your self defense weapon. If they do, you are not being very responsible. Also, we are talking about CARRYING a weapon, not storing it at home. I don't have any kids, so my 1911's are stored in Condition One 100% of the time. I also have two safes, one upstairs in the bedroom and one in the garage for all the long guns, so they aren't laying in the open.

    Secondly, every child needs to be properly instructed in the firearm and they need to learn it's dangers as soon as possible to prevent the "playing with the no-no toy" when mommy and daddy aren't home.

    All the safeties in the world are not going to help you if the first thing your kids do when left alone is go and pull the weapon out of the closet or from under the bed and start running around the house playing Cops & Robbers.

    As for "without a holster" - I routinely carry my pistol in a backpack with a pistol pouch and carry it in Condition One. It's not as fast to access as on your hip, but it's also very discrete to just slip your backpack into the booth next to you at a restaurant and not have to worry about printing when you take your coat off.

    JD
     
  17. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    What kind of backpack do you have JD?
     
  18. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    I got one of these and I love it.

    Maxpedition Monsoon Gearslinger Shoulder Sling Tactical Messenger Gear Bag - MAXPEDITION HARD-USE GEAR Tactical Nylon Gear for Military, Law Enforcement, Tactical Concealed Carry; Tailored to Perform Tactical

    You can't see it in the pictures, but right where the shoulder strap attaches to the bottom of the bag, there is a big YYK inverted Zipper that houses a padded pistol pouch.

    They even include a velco pistol "holster" that you can put in the pouch, in an inverted or traditional carry version to "secure" the pistol.

    I find it's the perfect height, for me, to just put my 1911 in the padded pouch upside down with the grip towards the zipper, like in a small of the back inverted holster. If anything seems shifty, I can reach back, unzip the pouch and slip my hand in to the reassuring weight of my pistol without any grandiose and alarming movements.

    I love this pack. Very well made and it has pouches for everything. It goes, probably, 60% of the places with me when not working because it is just so common in the PNW for people to have an over the shoulder bag. Very good concealment and the pistol is protected from grabby hands because it is isolated between the backpack and my waist.

    Good stuff. Definitely recommended.

    JD
     
  19. Mr. Bluesky

    Mr. Bluesky New Member

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    That's a nice bag, JD. Have you tried any of their other bags? This one (Maxpedition Pygmy Falcon-II Backpack) looks great for the mini-BOB I'm putting together to hike from university to home.

    EDIT: Slew of mall-ninja appeal adjectives removed from link description.
     
  20. MB44

    MB44 New Member

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    1) Well the bottom line is that you have to do some kind of compromise in the case that you have kids around you. I was interested in hearing what other folks have done in this situation, e.g. a weapon in the truck is not an option as spittinfire suggested. I got six kids of which three are living at home(+ three in living abroad). Their ages are respectively 3,13,18 years : The oldest one doesn't have a interest in weapons, but understand the seriousness of it, and knows the basics on how to handle a weapon. The 13 years old she has been shooting for the last two years, and has already entered in IPSC competitions, and is real serious about it. The youngest knows his way around guns, - knows how to eject the magazine, point shoot :) , and understand that you can rack the slide, however he ain’t got the power yet to do so. They all know that handling a weapon is only done under my supervision, and any access to firearms is restricted by a safe to which only my wife and I has the access codes to. I carry at home as well, thus the question was to see if somebody had solved the equation better than what I have.

    2) Holster…. For reason which I will not get into here, I can’t use a holster but I do carry on my hip – again a tradeoff/compromise. I like the idea of the backpack, which I will switch for my computer carrying bag, but the idea is the same. I have experimented a lot with clothes for this special condition, and all my range practice is done from the hip, without a holster. So I have done some adjustments for my condition, but I was curious if others had some similar experience and wanted to share their findings.

    Just for the record, but that should be obvious if you look at my profile, I do not live in the U.S. so my conditions are somewhat different.
    I have found that some of the exposure is minimized carrying in condition 2, but I would be the first to admit, that should my conditions change, I would prefer to carry in condition 1. I have contemplated to do so now that I am using a SIG P250, which has that long DAO trigger, but I am still evaluating this. For right now I am compensating this with ICPS training in order to be able to execute as fast as possible from condition 2.
    I am open for any suggestions/recommendations.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010