Technical armor

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by thetechnicalguy, Aug 2, 2011.

  1. thetechnicalguy

    thetechnicalguy New Member

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    Hello everyone.
    I am here because of a "conceptual" project of mine.
    I have a project regarding a DIY "technical" (you know,a pickup truck with a machinegun mounted on top of it).
    Taking into consideration that I am not very good at physics and was not able to get any valuable information elsewhere on the internet,
    I would like to ask you about it's armor.
    Considering that usually in the type of situation technicals are used you don't really have access to composite armor or RHA (rolled homogenous armor) steel (that are used for modern armored vehicles) I thought whether or not you could use regular steel.
    Sure,it would probably be really heavy and blah blah blah but I just wanted to know if it could work.
    So I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could bring up any info about regular steel vs RHA or composite,e.g. RHA plate of X thickness is approximately equal to regular steel plate of Y thickness,etc..
    Thank you very much!!!
     
  2. moonpie

    moonpie New Member

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    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011

  3. Gordo323

    Gordo323 New Member

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    I hope your project remains a "conceptual" project!
    I am not a metallurgist, so the only advice I have is to introduce yourself in the introductions thread.
    You joined a great forum though!
     
  4. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    plate steel is a lot heavier than you think and a lot more difficult to work and mount on vehicles. there is a reason most ww2 tanks looked like boxes...

    pirated from a metalworking forum:

    thickness(in decimal format, ie .25) times width in inches times length in inches times .2836
    a 12x12 1/2" plate
    .5 x 12 x 12 x .2836= 20.4192lbs
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011
  5. usmcprofessional

    usmcprofessional New Member

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    yea man its conceptualy retarded. you might be able to put up some armor for small arms, but your stuff wont stand a chance against rifles. 5.56 can go through 8" of solid concrete, let alone anything else thats bigger in powder or in round. If you were to put up enough to do so, your truck wouldnt move.
     
  6. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    i saw tom hanks blow up a german tiger tank once with a 1911. so unless you got more armor than a tiger tank you aint stopping a 45acp
     
  7. Shihan

    Shihan Active Member Lifetime Supporter

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    If you were to place thinner sheets at the proper angles, that would provide deflection with the sine of incoming angle versus the tangent of the angle providing the cosine of the outgoing trajectory is in parallel to the gradian of the velocity arc rounded out provided that the energy is dissipated, that should work.
     
  8. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I would think most of the "technicals" with any "armor" were using it more for concealment than cover/protection from projectiles. I would look into some layered-up fiberglass-type sheeting. Bullet Resistant Fiberglass and Bullet Proof Panels | SecureAll™ from Protective Structures, Ltd.


    LOL! I thought that was a great scene.

    I am NOT betting my life on friggin Geometry. About all i really remember is "oscar had a hold on arthur".
     
  9. CHLChris

    CHLChris New Member

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    In most SHTF situations, we imagine ourselves as the F getting the S all over us. In your conception, it looks like you want to bring on the S, all by your lonesome.
     
  10. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Kind of negates the whole concept of a "technical". It is a light, inexpensive, maneuverable, fast truck wielding a lot of firepower.
     
  11. BombDoc

    BombDoc New Member

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    Regular steel plate is going to require three to four times the plate thickness to be comparable to RHA. If you can use a matrix of steel layer, composite/glass layer, and woven/pressed impregnated fiber layer you may be close to the capability. There are several examples of how this works. Just search for MRAP and you get all the info you need.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2011
  12. thetechnicalguy

    thetechnicalguy New Member

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    Thanks for all the great info,guys!
    (I will use metric because this is what most of the values I have found are in)
    Based on the chart on this page: armor steel SPS-43
    A plate of that exact steel material of 6.5mm thickness is able to stop a 5.56 NATO FMJ round at a velocity of 950m/second.
    Taking into account what BombDoc said (Regular steel plate is going to require three to four times the plate thickness to be comparable to RHA),if said forementioned material is of an even greater strength than regular RHA steel,a regular steel plate 5 times thicker should do the job.
    6.5mm*5=32.5mm=~33mm=3.3cm.
    I have made a little chart considering approximate plate volumes (by using approximate vehicle part dimensions that it will be mounted on) and approx. regular steel density of 8000 kg/cubic metre.And the approximate cost by a value of 0.52$/kg of steel.(I have found all of these values on the internet and brought them toghether,I do not know wheter or not they are correct).
    Chart:
    |Location| |Type| |Thick| |Weight (kg)|
    R side panel steel 2cm 23
    L side panel steel 2cm 23
    Doors steel 3cm 129.6 (64.8x2)
    Engine front steel 5cm 120
    Engine top steel 4cm 145
    Tailgate steel 2cm 30
    Cab bottom steel 7cm
    240
    Tank steel 4cm
    160

    Grand total 870.6
    Total armor cost: 0.52$/kg of steel * 870.6 kg of steel = 452.7$
    A new 2011 Ford F-150 Regular Cab 4x4 with a 3.5L EcoBoost engine has a maximum payload of almost 1300 kg.
    The maximum payload of a vehicle is described as the maximum weight it can carry with a tank full of fuel in safe conditions.
    Maximum payload: 1300 kg - armor weight: 871 kg - 2 men (one driving,one firing the machingun): 200 kg - M2 machinegun weight (with post/mount): 60 kg = 169 kg left for ammo,so if a
    .50 cal BMG weighs in at about 1.8 kg then you could carry about 100 of them.A heavy machinegun is a little bit of an overkill for a technical,but it could probably take down anything that runs,flies or sails that has light or medium armor.But still,it is quite large and so are the bullets,so let's think of something more suitable for a technical's role..
    The M240/FN MAG firing 7.62x51mm NATO rounds would probably be better.There are also cheaper alternatives,like the Russian PK/PKM firing 7.62x54mmR rounds or the RPD/RPK firing standard 7.62x39mm AK-47 rounds or the latter,firing 5.45x39mm newer AK-74 rounds.
    So,going back to our calculations,using an M240: Maximum payload: 1300 kg - armor weight: 871 kg - 2 men: 200 kg - M240 weight: 12 kg - post/mount weight: ~8 kg for a solid post = 209 kg left for ammo.Using standard 7.62x51mm NATO FMJ rounds weighing in at about 150 gr. a piece = 0.15 kg => you can carry about 1400 rounds (which is about 47 30-round mags,which at the slowest rate of fire specified of 750 rounds/min would mean only 2 minutes of continous firing)
    Of course this is all theoretical but theoretically this setup could shred through enemies while being landmine-resistant :D (remember the 7cm thick under-cab armor? :D )
    Oh well,it was a fun thing to think about,and actually using a bigger more powerful truck like an F-350 or F-450 you could probably have a bigger gun with a lot of ammo with a truck that is still moving pretty good (no need to break any land-speed record in a combat situation :D )
    Most of you will probably think I'm crazy thinking so much about something like this,but well. :D
     
  13. BombDoc

    BombDoc New Member

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    The contract security guys here run armored F-350s. They have to run axles from F-550s to carry the weight.

    Also look into what it takes to mount your armor onto the mule. An F-150 isn't going to simply accept over a ton of armor. You need to consider sub-structures and support for that armor. The roof of that truck alone, from the A/B-pillars, will overcome maximum payload capacity. Then make a turret, even for a 240B/PKS/DS-30 is going to add even more weight to the overworked 1/2-ton.

    Think commercial/industrial. Google the storm chaser. Take a look at what it weighs and what it started out to be.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2011
  14. thetechnicalguy

    thetechnicalguy New Member

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    I do not understand what you mean about the truck's roof.It does not have any armor,as you can see in my previous list.It's kind of hard to shoot a truck's roof unless you are in or on top of a building.And my project doesn't include a turret either.It has a post mounted in the centre of the bed and a mount with 2 axes,so you can move it 360 degrees horizontally (if you want to shoot towards the rear of the truck you can flip sides) and 180 degress vertically.
    I thought the armor could simply be welded on,and considering that it is relatively evenly distributed it shouldn't be a problem,right?
    Please explain the roof part because I don't know what you mean.
     
  15. BombDoc

    BombDoc New Member

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    My apoligies if I missed your intent with the bed-mounted gun. Even still, when we used to use those they were quite robust. Several hundred pounds to withstand the abuse of the gun.

    You can't really weld into body panels. The metal is very thin and doesn't support additional weight. Also, some pick-ups run composite bed sides. I'm not sure Ford is doing this, but be aware.

    There are production vehicles that meet your idea. They are monsters, even the ones that appear somewhat stock. I see them every day.
     
  16. thetechnicalguy

    thetechnicalguy New Member

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    Thanks for the reply.
    Would be interesting to do it with a turret.. it would be awesome if you could move it around using an electromagnetic system :)

    About the mounting.. could you just screw them then? Or use rivets?
     
  17. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    Even if a round doesnt penetrate the armor the steel spalling issue exists. There is a world of difference between simple sheet steel and armor plate.
     
  18. Jpyle

    Jpyle New Member

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    After all that a round of .22lr takes out your tires or radiator and you are dead in the water. You also need to harden or protect your mechanical systems.
     
  19. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    Mexican cartels now using ‘narco tanks’ - The Washington Post
    The article also mentioned some dump trucks that had been modified.

    Check out what the cartels got caught with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2011
  20. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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