SWAT team shootin in AZ.

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by oldshooter, May 28, 2011.

  1. oldshooter

    oldshooter New Member

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    I just saw this on tv this morning about a SWAT team shooting an ex Marine in his home in Arizona. 71 shots fired by the swat boys. apparently 21 hits.
    I don't know what the deal was but the news media said he was being investigated for being part of a home invasion burglary ring.
    His wife said she saw men with guns outside and that her husband grabbed a rifle to confront the intruders. Also it was said his rifle was still on safety when he was shot. No drugs or stolen items found.
    This is just another example of some of the trigger happy Rambos that have infiltrated our law enforcement agencies. (remember when they were called "peace officers"?)
    In the last few months in my neck of the woods there have been several officer involved shootings. IMHO some were very questionable.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2011
  2. NitroxAZ

    NitroxAZ New Member

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    I am waiting to hear more as this unfolds and don't want to rush to judgement. That said they have released the helmet cam video of one of their team that was in their vehicle. I was surprised to see one of the SWAT team members lean in and blindly fire into the house. I would be interested to get the take of our LEO members. I do not pretend to know what it is like to be in those shoes and would appreciate some insight.

    Here is the link to the video. No blood and gore but you get the idea of what happened. Vmix : Video: Tucson SWAT shooting of former Marine
     

  3. hawkman3111

    hawkman3111 New Member

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    Im not going to condemm in this instance yet either. It sounds like someone somewhere FUBARed smething, but I cant blame the first guy thru the door if someone has a rifle in hand.

    I did think of this site when I saw the story, ie just how many custom AR-15s did he get shot by anyway?
     
  4. PSmitty1

    PSmitty1 New Member

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    Here is my take on this and keep in mind that I'm biased. I'm an LEO.

    I hear a siren. I see an entry team whose officers are clearly marked. They announce "Police Search Warrant, Open The Door". They make entry and theres a pause then the shooting starts. We can't see what the entry team can see!

    What we don't have is the information from the investigation. There was obviously enough P/C for a judge to sign a search warrant. Just because they didn't locate any stolen property in his house doesn't mean he didn't commit any home invasions or burglaries. If he was part of a "Ring" I would bet his house was not the only one hit.

    From what I see in the video, any reasonable person would know that it was the police at the door! If he knew, and I would suspect he did, then why would he grab his gun.

    His rifle being on safe has absolutely no bearing on wether or not this was a good shoot.

    Why did they fire so many rounds in the manner that they did? I don't know. I can't see what they observed inside the house.

    Good people can do bad things! There is nothing in this video and story that shows the police did anything wrong. Just because he was an ex-marine doesn't make them wrong. And his weapon being on safe doesn't make them wrong.

    My response is based soley on the information provided in this thread!
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  5. Bighead

    Bighead New Member

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    "What surprises me is how many people whose ignorance of shooting is obvious do not let their ignorance stand in the way of reaching sweeping conclusions about situations that they have never faced."

    -Dr. Thomas Sowell

    Link: Force Science: Shots Fired: An Examination of Police Shootings and Citizen Behaviors
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  6. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Some bits of information we have heard already (I won't call them facts, because we don't know what's true and what isn't):

    • Vanessa Guerena woke her husband, Jose, at 9:30AM just after he had gone to sleep after working a night shift saying she heard noises outside and a man was at her window wearing a mask who pointed a weapon at her.
    • Vanessa did NOT identify the people she saw outside as law-enforcement.
    • Vanessa lost two relatives in March, 2010 (Manuel and Cynthia Orozco) to home invaders who also shot their 3-year-old daughter.
    • Initial reports by police said Jose fired the first shot and that is why they emptied three full mags in his direction. Later, we found out that was untrue - Jose had not fired and his safety was on.
    • This raid was part of a multi-home raid on marijuana trafficking, but nothing was found in the Guerena's home and very little was found in the other homes that were raided. Had this been a successful take-down of a trafficking group, I guarantee you we would have seen the evidence on the evening news to mitigate the screw-up at killing Guerena.
    • The cops would not let the EMTs treat Jose until an hour after Vanessa had called 911. He had already died, of course.
    • Warrants and other evidence was sealed four days after this became national news.
    • Cops scolded the media for questioning the legality of the raid, the department's account of what happened, and the department's ability to fairly investigate its own officers.
    • We know the investigation that led to the warrants being issued was not thorough - cops did NOT know there were kids in the Guerena's home, for example.
    • Cops had mistakenly raided a home near Guerena the same morning and have since replaced the front door they smashed.

    A side commentary: Sheriff Dupnik was the guy in charge of this raid. He is also the guy who criticized the Tea Party movement back in 2010 claiming it was full of racists and bigots. Dupnik is very pro-illegal alien and has come out against all anti-illegal alien bills.
     
  7. ScottA

    ScottA FAA licensed bugsmasher Lifetime Supporter

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    Is it SOP for the entry team to approach the door with their weapons slung across their back???

    That didn't look like a group of trigger-happy Rambos to me. I would have expected them to be more aggressive.

    But I'm just Joe Public. What do I know.
     
  8. culdee

    culdee New Member

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    excessive force?

    Great stuff! Where were the predator drones or the blackhawks? Aren't there rules on the use of force anymore or is it just that you go in with all the force you can muster? Twentyone hits!
     
  9. knfxda

    knfxda New Member

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    "Marijuana trafficking". Serioulsly?!?

    Police State muzzle control... Don't know what's at the end of your barrel? 3 others shooting in a general direction? Don't worry, jump into the fray and unload your mag.

    Pro-police, anti-"police state"!

    Being less knee-jerk about this... I have to consider that if they had the right house, I'm not sure that I would have a problem with their actions (after the 1st shot was fired).

    What I do have a problem with is the premise that this type of response is warranted in this case, even if they had the right guy.

    There needs to be some set of standards for this type of response (they can't be your defacto response or viewed as a method of keeping the edge of the weapon sharp, or in self-justifying their existence or expense):

    • You have the right house!
    • There are no kids in the house!
    • The charges are in line with an armed response! (i.e., Someone in immediate danger.)
    • The person in the house represents a real threat!
    • There is no other way to apprehend the person other than an armed home raid!

    • Oh, and You have the right house!
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  10. Bighead

    Bighead New Member

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    The noises she must have heard were the siren on the fully marked police vehicle in front of her house, which was quieted only so that the raid team could announce their presence several times before breaching the front door. And I'm not sure what the police are supposed to do to identify themselves when they already arrive wearing full tactical uniforms with police identification markings across the helmet, chest, back, and on both shoulders.

    A tragedy that might have clouded her judgment, but doesn't speak to the police conduct.

    Officers arrive, siren blaring for about 8 seconds, knock and announce for about 20 seconds, then breach the front door. They are confronted with Guerena standing down the hallway with an AR-15. A member of the entry team has a negligent discharge, sparking this powder keg of a situation as other members of the team believe they are under fire, and return fire on Guerena. The entire exchanged lasted about 10 seconds.

    My understanding was the raids were coordinated against suspects involved in home invasion robberies (robbing drug dealers). What does "very little was found" mean? I have read information that "The raid netted drugs, large amounts of cash, bulletproof vests, about 30 cellphones and a stolen vehicle, records show, but no arrests have been made." Another report indicated "about $100,000 in cash, marijuana and firearms were seized that morning from the four homes that were searched." Another report indicates that it was $94,000 in a shoe box was found in the raid on Guerena's brother's house.

    Emergency medical crews will generally not enter an unsafe scene. Guerena reportedly fell out of the hallway, and out of view. Police indicate that they could not guarantee that he was not still a threat, or that other threats didn't exist in the house. I would bet they waited on a bomb disposal robot to enter the house with a video feed before declaring the scene safe.

    I think the initial warrants should have been released right up front, and any information that might pose a risk to undercovers or informants should be redacted. Real information is how you combat wild conjecture.

    An overzealous media parades the "grieving widow" and pictures of "the victim" in his dress blues. Negative reporting doesn't always illicit the best response from the target of the negativity. But the Sheriff's Office should be smart enough to know that it can't win with some reporters, and simply present the facts as the investigation unfolds.

    ***

    I've heard repeatedly about how Guerena had just come home from a 12-hour shift, but I've had to dig to find out that evidence supporting the warrants had been seized or that "during a briefing before the warrants were served, records show, detectives told SWAT team members the two Guerena brothers and Celaya were associated with a double homicide related to a home invasion."

    The news had decided what it wants to report. Many of the stories are loaded with inaccuracies, others assume facts that are not known, and still others allege police misconduct and coverup, despite clear evidence to the contrary.

    Some might do better if they read more than just Radley Balko at the Huffington Post.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  11. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Bighead, I'm not disputing what you're saying at all and I'd be grateful if you can point me to some links that show what you describe is what happened. Because if there were cop cars with flashing lights and sirens and if they did knock, identify themselves and wore clothing with markings that clearly identified them as cops, then that's a whole different issue.

    My primary objection is LEOs wearing masks and all-black tactical gear and doing no-knock entries.
     
  12. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Had this home owner been a convict or some other type of miscreant, no tough questions would be asked of the Sheriff's department, however, if you kill a former Marine, or any Veteran, you'd better be correct in your facts and be prepared to justify your actions IMMEDIATELY following the event.

    This is particularly true now given the nations feeling that currently our #1 Hero's are not cops, there returning Veterans.

    I'm not going to dissect the tactical aspects of this situation, there are simply not enough facts. However, the existence of this thread is a clear indications that Pima County could/should have been better prepared to handle the after action review.

    I would hope all of us can hold our judgement until the full facts are know.

    I would respectfully remind all of the LEO's here of 1 simple truth. Your safety and your ability to do your job lies neither in your numbers or your mandate. It rests completely in the TRUST of the American's citizenry. Never sacrifice that trust lest you learn the hard way that the punks and criminals your trained to deal with are mere children compared to the overwhelming threat you would face should the millions of honest, hardworking Veterans of this land begin to view you as storm troopers rather than peace officers.

    TACK
     
  13. NitroxAZ

    NitroxAZ New Member

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    Here are a few things I have found out from reports.

    1. The home invasions in this area had been done by people in similar looking gear to LEO.

    2. He was just home from a night shift. I would think they would have known this through investigation, but I am not LEO so this is pure assumption. Why couldn't he have been apprehended as he was coming home without the need for a raid?

    Just because he was a marine has no bearing if he was involved in the criminal activities that would justify this kind of raid. I still don't understand the SWAT member leaning in and blindly firing into the home.
     
  14. Bighead

    Bighead New Member

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    And I would tend to agree with you. It is unfortunate that they could not simply detain Guerena at his work, and then enter the house for the search. Most likely the investigation had developed probable cause for the search warrant, with hopes that evidence in the homes would give them sufficient information to seek an arrest warrant. I would like to see search warrants that could authorize the detention of the person who controls the location to be searched, even if the detention takes place at a separate location before the search warrant is served.

    And even if Jose Guerena is a murdering home invader, I think in ideal terms this raid could have been handled better. But, what I've learned is the world doesn't work in the ideal, and all in all it seems like the police raid team was trying to do what they had been trained to do. With difficult circumstances it is often easy to look back and see where mistakes where made, and what might have been done better, but the police and Jose Guerena were in the moment, without the benefit of hindsight.

    Here are a few of the links with the most information:

    Statement of SWAT team supervisor Bob Krygier

    Arizona Daily Star: Complex Drug Probe Triggered SWAT raid

    KGUN News: Video of the initial SWAT roll up at Guereno residence

    Arizona Daily Star: All Four Homes in Raid Tied to Guerena Family
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  15. hawkman3111

    hawkman3111 New Member

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    the great debate

    This story is a great example of how we express our political views in America now.

    1. The other side is ALWAYS wrong.

    2. None of the pertinent facts can change rule 1

    This applies to everything now.

    Healthcare, budget, iraq, 2a, debt.

    This conversation reminds me of another on this board where LE was in pursuit and entered someones home without a warrant. My point here is that when the cops kick your door in your 2A rights are gone and if you touch your weapon they will kill you. Right house, wrong house, you grab your weapon and you get shot. The cops will spin it up for the press and you wont be suing anyone.

    How often does anyone survive beeing shot by LE? They always seem to die on the scene...
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  16. knfxda

    knfxda New Member

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    Gotta lover AZ. There news station is called "KGUN9". We're not even that overt down here in the "Gunshine State" of Floida! :D

    Is the "9" for 9mm?
     
  17. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    With all due respect...."QFTMFT!" :cool:
     
  18. PSmitty1

    PSmitty1 New Member

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    I'd be interested to see how different the responses would be if the stories were titled "Police shoot armed drug dealer". Also how different they would be if he had not been a former Marine.
     
  19. culdee

    culdee New Member

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    Qftt

    Amen man, Amen.
     
  20. oldshooter

    oldshooter New Member

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    In my original post I didn't intend to cast dispersions on the LEO's of Arizona.
    No one can know exactly what the first guy in the door saw except himself.
    What I do know is that in the last couple of years there seems to be a more"shoot first and more" attitude. I honestly support our men and women in blue but (and this is a big but) I have seen more gestopo attitude in my local area than should be allowed in this country. Im sure we all know some great men and women that wear the badge and do what is right. I will also bet you've met some a**hole that gets out of his cruiser , hitches up the belt and struts up to your car like he's John Wayne. These are the guys that scare the crap out of me. And don't forget that in some states, there is what is called a "no knock warrant".
    Anyone remember a fellow named Mike Ballew? ( I think thats spelled right)

    Im done for now.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011