suggestions for a bulletproof vest?

Been thinking about picking me one up also, just not sure there worth the money since you would have to replace it anyways rather ya used it or not in a year or so.
You will see alot of used ones online that are cheaper but there not safe anymore, after a bit the kevlar will begin to pull apart and make it usless, thats why cops usually replace there often.

 

Okay, this is probably going to stir up some controversy.

I have worn the Interceptor Body Armor in the field that the troops are issued. I, personally, hate the fit, the feel, and the overall effect of ceramic plates in the vest with "pockets".

I have worn, in a "show room environment" the Dragon Skin Body Armor by Pinnacle.

I do not feel there is even a competition. The Dragon Skin, hands down, fits better, feels better and will stop just about anything that you can throw at it.

If you do the research, and don't listen to the standard answer of "They failed the government's tests" you will see that this armor is something special. For the record, the story behind the scenes looks a lot like this...

"It would appear the corruption and drama that is the Dragon Skin vs. The Military & NIJ continues. After several corrupt attempts ( strictly my opinion ) by people in very powerful positions to keep what I consider to be a far superior product out of the hands of our troops in harms way, it would appear some charges are now being levied & the military's hypocritical slip is showing.

"Retired Army Colonel John D. Norwood (West Point '80), former head of the Army office responsible for allocation of body armor, is reported to be under criminal investigation for alleged violations of federal law related to his taking a post-retirement job with Armor Holdings, Inc., one of the major providers of Interceptor Body Armor to the Army ."

Now, let me break this down here a minute. A Colonel, the former head of the Army Office RESPONSIBLE for the allocation for Body Armor - for the Army troops in harms way all over the world, has recently retired from the Miltary and taken a high paying job WITH the company who is one of the makers of the armor that is currently used by the Army. Do I need to ask Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!?! Is it just me, or does this stink to high hell?

Now, in addition, there are several former West Point graduates who have been summoned to an Article 32 hearing in direct relation to what is becoming a very high reaching case.

"As the editor notes above a presumption of innocence must be made. Are any of you familiar with how a military investigation is conducted? Early on you’re given an “Article 32†hearing, which often includes the proceedings required under Article 31, and is the military’s equivalent under UCMJ and is approximately analogous to the civilian law enforcement agencies conducting an investigation, issuing a Miranda warning, and performing the sort of detailed collection and consideration of evidence done by a grand jury in the civilian world.

Having granted COL Norwood his due right to be considered innocent, it’s noteworthy to remember that by the time the military gets to Article 32, there is an assumption that the matter will go further, and that’s all I’m going to say about the matter for now.

Most military summoned to an Article 32 hearing bring a defense attorney with them for very good reason."

If this wasn't infuriating enough, get a load of this horse****:

"Currently nine U.S. generals stationed in Afghanistan are reportedly wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin body armor, according to company spokesman Paul Chopra. Chopra, a retired Army chief warrant officer and 20+-year pilot in the famed 160th "Nightstalkers" Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne), said his company was merely told the generals wanted to "evaluate" the body armor in a combat environment."

It's perfectly fine for 9 generals in Afghanistan, but the average grunt, the kids kicking in doors and doing the dirty work don't warrant it?

I believe treason is still punishable by death in this country's military, is it not? I consider someone taking money, and securing himself a high paying job with huge incentives to promote one product and stand "watchdog" at the gate to keep other products out to be an act of the highest treasonous basis. Keeping the best products, be them gas masks, combat boots, firearms or body armor from troops that leads to them not having the best possible material to do their job is a crime!

As of Spring of 2007 - a Senate Sub Commitee had demanded that a new test between Interceptor, Dragon Skin and all other comers was to be conducted in June of 2007 - side by side and in full view of all interested parties. the Army, with input directly from Col. Norwood, postponed the tests until March of 2008 - because the Interceptor brand was having difficulty fielding a new plate to meet the new test Standards. ****ing Hypocrits!

Source: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...%3Doff%26sa%3DG

I look forward to seeing the test results, if the Army has the "sand" to actually put on a fair test and not keep everything in the dark when their chosen product is upstaged and embarassed."


I have a complete 2006/2007 price list for Dragon Skins Products if you guys are interested. I am going to need some help with the .pdf format it came in though to get it published...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS0pSwdQfbY"]Dragon Skin on Future Weapons[/ame]

JD

 

I'm not as up on this whole thing as JD but I can add a few tidbits of helpful info .

The video JD posted isn't the first I have seen of Dragon Skin tests , in the first they first took a torso and head mold they use to make mannequins , and poured in clear ballistic gelatin mix and let it sit then they used several handguns and a full automatic AK and lastly not a grenade but a Claymore antipersonnel mine all on the same vest and Nothing and I mean NOTHING got through it .

When they removed the vest the outer layering was a bit shredded but the inside was in perfect condition as was the Completely clear Ballistic gel human "Torso" .

After this video was posted on the forum I was mostly at , several members who said they had kids in "The Sandbox" claimed to have bought these vests and sent them to their children .

It wasn't to many months later there was a post from one of these parents claiming his son was relieved of his Dragon Skin vest and Told he must wear the issued one even though it didn't have the same level of protection , further more he said his son said the Army issued this standing order , that they would confiscate all nonissue vests from all enlisted personnel and NOT return them .

Given our government and the corruption involved in it I can see high ranking officers putting their own financial future before the safety the line soldiers .

 

The only place you need to know in order to purchase armor -

http://www.bulletproofme.com/

 

We're currently issued GatorHawk brand armor. I've never actually used comfortable body armor. They're all relatively heavy and very hot if worn all day. We replace ours after I believe 3 to 5 years. Just because it's expired, doesn't mean it's bad. I've tested several "old" vests and found they still stop handgun ammo just fine. Our vests aren't designed to stop rifle rounds. I recently trained a guy who just came back from Iraq. He stated that the issued armor for the military is effective, but very heavy. He also wished the military would issue the Dragon skin.

 

Older body armor is not necessarily bad armor. I, too, have shot old armor and found it to stop at least as well as originally advertised. I shot a 14 year old Level II Kevlar vest (Safariland) and it stopped 9mm 115 gr ball, .40 180 gr Gold Dot, 10mm 180 gr Gold Dot (1300 fps), .45 ACP 230 gr Gold Dot, .357 mag 158 gr Gold Dot, .41 mag 170 gr Sierra JHC (1600 fps) and .44 mag 240 gr JHP (1250 fps). Of course 7.62 X 39 went right through.

I have several "expired" vests laying around for SHTF situations to protect the family.

One thought on plates. Ceramics are expensive and fragile. If you drop one on a hard surface, you likely broke it. There goes a Grand! Steel plates are much cheaper and take more abuse without breakage.

 

If I recall correctly from magazine articles , talking to cops and I once even read the instructions for the care of a vest when a friend joined a department all over many years , one of the biggest "threats" to Kevlar is sunlight .

Since you can't just stick them in a washing machine often if for no other reason because they aren't flexible enough to go in one , over the years cops have tried various ways to clean them from hand washing and hanging them out side to dry to even sending them to the dry cleaners .

Both sunlight and dry cleaning chemicals will damage Kevlar , and the recommended method is to take it out of it's protective cover and wipe it down with a mixture of water and vinegar and the hang it to air dry , INSIDE not outside in the sun .

Every cop I've seen when he wears his vest it has always been inside of a protective cover even before they invented trauma plates and little pouches in the covers to hold them usually to cover the heart/lung region .

One of the biggest dangers to cops when wearing a vest isn't so called "cop killer Bullets" but edged weapons and being trapped up against a solid object and being stabbed from the other side . There is a name for it but I just can't remember what they call it , the something effect is all I can think of at the moment .

 

Much has been learned over the years about the longevity of Kevlar. My first vest had the Kevlar encased in thick plastic with little miosture indicators inside (turned pink when wet). It was thought that Kevlar lost some effectiveness if it got wet. I have shot old vests that were used for our "Drownproofing" class. These vests were submerged in Clorinated pool water many times and then air dried. They all stopped as well as originally rated.

Another thought on body armor: NIJ not only rates for penetration but also for backface deformation (the "Blunt force trauma). There is a lot of controversy about how much back face deformation is acceptable. The Europeans allow more backface deformation than NIJ does. NIJ rated vests generally stop bullets at a higher level than rated, they just have a backface deformation that is too high for NIJ standards. Many wearers have been saved from hits that the vest was not rated to stop. Bruising can be severe but I would rather heal from a bruise than bleed out from an unprotected hit.

 

No, today it's more likely to be a sentence of neverending cocktail parties and appearances on the major media outlets to be received as a hero....

 

JD, that's a great vid. I saw that when it aired -- really good stuff.

As for corruption in the Army...it happens. Hopefully, Dragon Skin will make its way to those who could benefit by having it pronto.

As for treason, most folks here could probably list a dozen or so folks in government who would easily qualify for the hangman's noose. Don't hold your breath waiting for the government to police itself.

 

I'm not bkt - My only point is that there are perfectly good, strong, brave and selfless men and women who could benefit from a product proven to be more effective than the item that is curently in place.

The big problem with this war is the nightly body count, it's not the "cost" of the war, or the length of time. Vietnam had what, 53K or 54K dead, but you only got updates a couple of times a week. Now, every time a truck hits an IED and soldiers are taken away on medivac you hear about it within the hour.

Now, take those same soldiers and give them all Dragon Skin, you probably reduce the casaulty rate by 25% EASY. Personally, I would say closer to 50% because I have seen the stuff and it protects WAY better than the Interceptor stuff I had to wear. Suddenly you have a lot less dead, so the reporting isn't so doom and gloom all the damn time. Maybe people feel differently about the commitment. *shrug* Maybe not.

What I do know, from one of the sales reps at SHOT last year ( '07 ) was that Blackwater ordered 2,500 units from them for their operators & other field personnel to purchase from them, Blackwater, prior to or during deployment. Rumor has it they had over half of the units sold before the first vest was delivered. That speaks volumes to me. If a private security detail, one that can field whatever the hell it wants, is buying Dragon Skin and fielding it without question, someone needs to be asking why... As in why is it okay for contractors fighting side by side with our troops to be better equipped?

I personally don't think it is okay. I would rather my tax dollars go towards Dragon Skin than Interceptor....

JD

 

Me too and I would rather have had them go to 1911's in 45 acp over any 9mm , then theres the M16 do it all toy . I honestly wonder how the troops would have fared in combat all these years if they had stuck with a 30 cal projectile .

I would think that with all of these house to house engagements something like a modern version of the old 45 ACP "Tommy Gun" with a 3 round burst might just be the ticket at a 25 yards or less fight . I would rather hit an enemy with three rounds of 230 gr ball then 55-60 gr spire points at 50 feet .

 

Good for short range, .45 ACP, low recoil, burst/full-auto fire. KRISS?

 

*thread hijack*

I love the KRISS. Man, what a cool weapon. Easy to use, easy to maintain, light, accurate ( within it's own level on competition ). Recently been okayed by the good folks at the BATFE for civilian sales of the single shot model. Great weapon. And it uses the same ammo as my trusty 1911. I am fighting with myself over looking at, and possibly, procuring one.

*end thread hijack*

I just feel the Dragon Skin is a better, overall protectionary device that could save lives. The ceramic plate idea was nice, and it does a decent job, but there are too many gaps, and the plates themselves, like mentioned above, are fragile if they hit on the corners or flat on the thin edge. It's an idea that's time has passed, but because they are so firmly entrenched in the government machine, getting them out of there any time soon is going to be a real battle. A battle that will, unfortunately, lead to more soldier injury/deaths because of the modern battle field "armor" they are forced to wear.

JD