Sub-gun usefulness?

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by eon047, Sep 27, 2011.

  1. eon047

    eon047 New Member

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    I recently was having a discussion with a friend about the usefulness of a sub-gun system. I argued that the lighter weight and the milder recoil in general compared to a carbine in 16" in .223 would be superior. He argued in this day and age that a sub-gun was a dead system, and that a carbine in any rifle caliber would far outline the benefits of lighter weight and recoil. What do you guys think? Is the sub-gun a dead system or is there life for it still in different roles?
     
  2. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    short barreled rifles have enormous issues with muzzle flash from the unburnt powder. they also lose a very large amount of energy from the extremely short barrels. so you end up with a bullet that generally is lacking energy huge flash issues.

    pistol caliber subguns dont have those issues and usually work better due to the longer barrels than the pistols they were designed for. flash suppression is very very good

    so in a situation like urban combat or police clearing houses or arresting violent felons a subgun does extremely well.

    neither type does it all. they both have a definate use and role.
     

  3. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    Oh, Geez....I guess that MP5 just didn't cut it as an offensive weapons system. And let's throw in the Thompson Sub in .45APC as well....just not effective for close quarters combat...because that is what they were designed for!

    A mid range machinegun (full auto or select fire) like the M16 was built to fulfill both needs and thus limit the amount of different ammunition and weapons systems on the battlefield. Times change, but the effectiveness of the sub weapons systems cannot be denied.
     
  4. 7point62

    7point62 Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    My experience with subguns is limited to an ancient M3 45 blowback greasegun I lugged around for a week as a kind of back-up/novelty. If you fire it at kevlar the rounds bounce off. BITD, however, when the only body armor was a shirt, it would have done the job.

    An x2 re the MP5 etc. Some very good short shooters have been around in recent times. They have their place.
     
  5. eon047

    eon047 New Member

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    I see. Now the question is in semi auto only do these guns fulfill those roles? Cause as a civilian most of us would have semi-auto only rifles and guns. So what role can a civilian use these guns for? Besides the cool factor:cool:
     
  6. MrWray

    MrWray New Member

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    even though they are extremely pricey HK has the best sub guns on the market. MP5, MP5sd, and the UMP45 are a few of the popular ones IMO
     
  7. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    because they are fun.

    they make great guns for behind the seat or in the trunk defensive weapons

    they make superb home defense weapons where the concussive blast from shotguns may be really problematic. try firing a shotgun or handgun inside a building. a pistol caliber rifle is not very abusive concussion wise. if you got an indoor range you frequent take the hearing protection off for one shot. that experience is very unique. a pistol caliber greatly reduces that abuse. it makes follow up shots much easier.

    in border states they make outstanding defensive weapons in urban areas that have become extremely violent due to the lack of border security by george bush and barrack obama. not to mention eric holder and obama selling massive amounts of firearms to the drug lords on purpose.

    civilians have far more right to be armed with military style firearms than police departments and the actual military does. the governments ability to have weapons comes from the civilians not the other way round and that is whats been long forgotten

    a better question is what right does the police and military have for access to such weapons while denying them to the civilian population...
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  8. jjfuller1

    jjfuller1 New Member

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    i really wish i had the cash to drop on a mp5. ive always love that setup. anyway. yes, sub guns or pistol caliber carbines are great for CQB. they give you ample stopping power, higher magazine capacity, and better accuracy then pistols themselves. and lighter, less recoil then shotguns. not intended for longer ranges. and ive never been in a house(very vew other buildings) that would need or even offer longer shots...

    just the other day i saw a 9mm carbine getting fired. it painted a nice little pattern all over a 8'' bullseye at 100yds. and im sure that there are no bad guys that have a chest smaller than 8''
     
  9. eon047

    eon047 New Member

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    Yes, that's what I've told anyone who would listen. We should be able to own fully automatic firearms of any nature.Ive been looking to get one of those Ump .45's in the sbr semi-auto nature. Ive seen a couple on gunbroker.com but can't really find reviews on those specific configurations. Hk does make some good subguns indeed. Thanks for the input guys. About to go find me some subguns for my home defense gun :).
     
  10. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    SOME folks (Thank God, not me) live in areas where possession of a handgun is dang near impossible. But a pistol caliber semi-auto carbine IS allowed. In which case, that would look pretty good to me. If I can't have a 1911A1, then a Ruger Camp .45 would be a good second.
     
  11. eon047

    eon047 New Member

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    True. I didn't even consider that. Looks like I have plenty of reasons to argue with. I'm now going to get me some subgun power. Any suggestions?
     
  12. unclebear

    unclebear New Member

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    the local gunshop had a mac10 with a heat shield pistol grip, and the fold out stock, semi auto only if I had the cash at the time I would have gotten it. Also the MP7 is a nice little short sub machine gun, the round it fires is capable of piercing armor, and over all can be used more as a pistol if needed to be.
     
  13. MrWray

    MrWray New Member

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    Just looking on Google, Norinco makes an MP5A4 clone,model is "NR08". Dont know what the price is on them, they look pretty nice
     
  14. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I've been tempted to get one of those PPS43C "pistols"/remakes for some fun plinking, but there are other things in line first and the cheapo surplus ammo in 7.62x25 is mostly gone, at least for now (though Classicarms does list some). I realize this wouldn't be the most practical purchase.

    Untitled Document
    about 2/3 down the page under the shotties & such.
     
  15. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood New Member

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    To me, subguns lose some of their potential when they are designed without the magazine feeding through the grip. Obviously, the H&Ks are the most proven subguns around, but I'd take the ~4-5" shorter OAL of a grip-based mag well than a weapon with a forward mag well. If it weren't imported, something like a Beretta CX4 Storm with a 6-8" barrel would give an OAL of like 20-22" I think, and with high-cap M92 mags it would be extremely effective. More compact than holding a handgun in front of you, still easy to shoot one-handed, but with the accuracy and stability of a fixed-barreled, shoulder-fired weapon.

    And if you keep the barrel length the same, you get better ballistics and reduced report. If you can reload, using slightly reduced loads will allow for terminal performance similar to handguns, but with even less muzzle blast.
     
  16. eon047

    eon047 New Member

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    They do. I can't find a definite price yet. But I'm definitely going for this.
     
  17. 303tom

    303tom Well-Known Member

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    No useful role what so ever other than the cool factor. Just mt 2 cents !
     
  18. MrWray

    MrWray New Member

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  19. 7point62

    7point62 Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Other than plenty of intimidating firepower to stick out the window of your lowrider and into the faces of the rival gangbangers in the other lane. Mac10s and Uzis were popular with the cowboys in Miami/Dade in the 80s because they were easier to conceal than a carbine, easy to wield in the car and could be fired one-handed if you just wanted to hose the place down. Plus the cops back then were mostly carrying 357 wheelguns.

    Same advantages today with subs especially in a close protection role. I believe the US Secret Service is using the FN P90.
     
  20. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The pistol caliber carbines can serve a very useful purpose. The required training to become proficient is a lot less.The recoil is more manageable and as pointed out in a previous post, a carbine could easily replace a pistol or shotgun as a home defense weapon. It would be easier to support a flash and laser on a carbine. My wife cant use my 12 gauge but she could easily use a carbine even in 45ACP.
    I have been looking at the JR Carbine. They seem to be getting the bugs out. The latest reviews indicate much improved reliability.