Straw purchase witnessed today

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by Renegade44, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. Renegade44

    Renegade44 New Member

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    While my wife and I were at a LGS we witnessed a Straw purchase. And African American woman and her daughter in her twenties were checking out in line in front of us. Background check had come back clean on the mother purchasing the gun. She hands her credit card to the dealer and says this is my daughters credit card. Then proceeds to tell her daughter to show her drivers license for ID clarification of card. The dealer looks puzzled at both then proceeds with checkout.
    To me that was a red flag right there. I'm not saying it wasn't for the mother, but any question or suspicions arise and they are to reject the sale. That was suspicious to myself, wife, and the two gentlemen standing behind me by observation of their facial expressions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  2. sparky80

    sparky80 New Member

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    I'm surprised it wasn't questioned. Clerk was not doing his job, let's hope it was for mom.:rolleyes:
     

  3. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Dealer should not have continued with the checkout.

    I would advise the manager and never do any business there. Should someone look into it, I would not want my name on any records.
     
  4. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    While the transaction could seem suspect by the nature of someone else paying for it, its not seemingly illegal in itself nor is it abnormal. If the daughter had bought her mom a new oven, nobody would think anything of it. Coulda, Mighta, isnt enough for anything but heavy handed guilty until proven innocent tactics of "People Control" FOOG.

    No doubt, the clerk should have made the new owner confirm again at that point that the purchase was for her but a credit card transaction is less scary to me than someone handing a strawbuyer $5K in untraceable cash before they entered the shop to pick it up. We should be be careful not to start red Xing people for the possibility of doing bad things without an actual red flag being waved.
     
  5. partdeux

    partdeux Well-Known Member

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  6. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    Out here in Rural Upstate NY, Guns as gifts arent that strange and not only from relatives. My first gun was an Ithaca 22, single shot lever saddle gun. I was 11 years old and it was a gift from a family friend in Long Island as were all subsequent others gifts or inherited other than my Ithaca FW 12 Gauge, is that such a weird thing? Really, I think its special myself, each and every one of them has a sentimental connection to me that goes deeper than Wood and Cold Steel.
     
  7. Colby

    Colby New Member

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    Families often have indistinct lines of purchase because of gifting, who has a card, who has a job, who made a previous purchase and was "owed", etc.
     
  8. HOSSFLY

    HOSSFLY New Member

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    Hell my wife has paid like that on 90% of my guns :p
     
  9. Muliemaster

    Muliemaster New Member

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    My ex wife would steal my guns
     
  10. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    Gotcha, I ust think the onus is on the owner not the legal vendor. Firearm Responsibility is that of the owner not someone selling a firearm who has been given no legal reason to question the purchase.

    She nor the clerk likely didnt think twice about it because it alone isnt cause for concern, the background check is more than enough legal basis to transfer ownership.

    Thats not saying background checks are effective, Im guessing most people that have things in their background that would prevent purchase know it, they wont buy one legally or they will do a private purchase that doesnt really need one. Gun Control is ineffective at doing anything but preventing Unfettered access to Firearms for Legal Citizens.
     
  11. winds-of-change

    winds-of-change The Balota's Staff Member

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    I think it doesn't matter who paid for it but I believe the background check should have been done on the person who was going to own the gun. Particularly if she were present.
     
  12. Mosin

    Mosin Well-Known Member

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    How...and why...is that wrong???

    I asked for a gun as a gift, once. I went and filled out all the paperwork, a relative of mine paid for it, using a card, exact same scenario...That gun still sits in my safe, that relative is no longer with us. Same scenario you mentioned.

    My first gun when I turned 18, was my 17 year old friend said to me "lets go shooting". He had money, so we went to a LGS, and I bought a Remington 597. He paid the lady in cash, we walked out, went in the woods and shot cans all day. Then I took the gun home. I still have that rifle.


    I see nothing wrong with what happened, and *GASP!!!! Sometimes I sell my guns to friends....
     
  13. winds-of-change

    winds-of-change The Balota's Staff Member

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    I do believe the background check was done on the Mom even thought the daughter was right there. THAT'S what makes it wrong.
     
  14. HOSSFLY

    HOSSFLY New Member

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    Exactly ------
     
  15. HOSSFLY

    HOSSFLY New Member

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    Its wrong IF the daughter was the intended owner -
    Whos to say for sure the Mother wasn't & the girl was just paying for it?
    Kids do it for parents--parents do it for kids (legal age of course) :eek:
     
  16. Rick1967

    Rick1967 Well-Known Member

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    Legally that is a straw purchase. The background check is suposed to be done on the one paying for the gun. It would have been perfectly legal for the daughter to purchase the gun if the background check had been done on the daughter and then hand the gun to the mother as a gift.

    It was probably inocent. But it was still not proper. My wife has gifted me many guns. But she always had to do the background check herself and pay for it herself. It asks on the form if you are the actual purchaser. If someone else is paying for it, you are not the actual purchaser.
     
  17. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    While I agree with your sentiments, folks, this may have been an illegal sale.

    If YOU buy a gun, and GIVE it to someone as a gift- that is legit, and not a strawman sale. If they give you the MONEY to buy it FOR THEM, that is a strawman sale. And that is illegal. Why? because that is the law.

    Case in point- was at LGS, extremely busy, shop owner asked if I had a minute to talk with couple of gents that were shopping for a revolver. Sure (I drink their coffee, eat their brownies, do not mind helping out)

    Young man, mid 20s, US Navy. Visiting his father-in-law, had expressed desire to buy a revover, FIL had brought him down to shop. I asked his duty station, home of record. Hmm. Both in another state. Explained that Fed law did not permit him to acquire a handgun in a state not his residence.
    l
    FIL asked if SIL could give him the money, and HE woud buy the gun, and give it to him. No. That is the classic description of a strawman sale. The ATF has a training video on Strawman Sales for dealers on their website.
     
  18. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    I really don't see a problem. Mom wants/needs a gun, daughter buys for her. Under the mom's name.

    Is it really any different than any man taking their girlfriend/wife into a gun store, saying "pick out what you want" and then buying it for them? The very same method many of us here have recommended in the past?
     
  19. Renegade44

    Renegade44 New Member

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    Ok, how's this for you then. What if she just said it was her daughter and it wasn't. How do you know? If it was a gift, why didn't she just buy it and give it to her.
     
  20. earl1412

    earl1412 New Member

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    Isn't there a question on the 4473 form asking you if this purchase is for you or someone else? If this question was answered incorrectly, I do believe there is a criminal act being performed.
    earl