Strange question for you all

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by 12fretter, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. 12fretter

    12fretter New Member

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    Handgun:

    On a DAO, you pull the trigger, the hammer cocks, then the hammer falls, explosion, rack, reload...and you're off to the next round. Right?

    Revolver:

    You pull the trigger, the hammer cocks, then the hammer falls, explosion, cylinder rotates - effectively reloading...and you're off to the next round. Right?

    So why is the handgun considered a semi-auto but the revolver isn't?
     
  2. GeneralPatton

    GeneralPatton New Member

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    I may be wrong in this, but I believe that the revolver works on mechanical motion, whereas the semi-auto use the recoil from the expended gasses to cycle the action and chamber the next round. Again, I could be wrong.
     

  3. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    correct.

    semi auto means the firing of the round cycles a new one into the chamber and cocks the hammer/striker at the same time.
     
  4. StainlessSteel215

    StainlessSteel215 New Member

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    I always thought you could consider a modern day rotating cylinder revolver as a semi-auto. You pull the trigger and it goes bang, up to 8 times. But yeah its in the physical mechanics of the gas pressure cycling of the semi pistol that makes it a true semi.

    Not a world of difference to your index finger though ;)
     
  5. eatmydust

    eatmydust New Member

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    I could be wrong here also, but I believe John Brownings original semi-auto pistol was DA/SA, the action of the slide not only ejected the spent round and chambered the next round, but also cocked the hammer to make follow-up shots SA.

    I don't know the evolution of DAO semi-autos but since they use the same operation as Brownings original, they are lumped together in the semi-auto category.
     
  6. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Yep. And with a revolver, the cylinder rotates BEFORE firing, not after, and for a single action pistol (1911A1) firing the first shot causes the hammer to be recocked. This does not happen with a revolver- Except in the case of the Webley-Fosberry AUTOMATIC REVOLVER.

    And a semi-auto would perhaps be more accurately described as auto loading or self loading (which was the term used in Germany long ago)
     
  7. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    What we seem to be glossing over here is the revolver

    requires the DA every shot. As opposed to the semi,

    which is SA after the first DA action on the first round.
     
  8. eatmydust

    eatmydust New Member

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    Not to hijack the thread but does anyone know the evolution of the DAO semi-auto?
     
  9. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Evolution? Law enforcement agencies with poorly trained shooters. When you have a very light trigger pull, they shoot without meaning to. The DAO pistols generally have a much heavier trigger pull.

    Makes it harder to shoot yourself in the *** when returning pistol to holster.

    :p
     
  10. Trez

    Trez Well-Known Member

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    ........ And the Mateba auto-revolvers. ;)
     
  11. Bob Wright

    Bob Wright Member

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    The primary difference between manual operation and semi-auto or auto is that no manual effort is required to perform the action of readying the firearm for the succeeding shot or shots.

    In a DA revolver, cocking is done by the pull of the trigger, and no functioning is performed by action of blowback, gas, or recoil.

    Bob Wright
     
  12. Bob Wright

    Bob Wright Member

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    Man, lumping pistols into any category is a monumental task. There are blowback and short recoil actions, striker fired vs. hammer fired.

    Browning's first pistols were SA only, as in the M1903 series through the M1911 pistols. Some very early pistols were DA only, as their ammunition was not powerful enough to both extract/eject and cock the action.

    And in Germany the one-hand pistols were popular among mechanical engineers, where the front of the trigger guard was a cocking lever.

    As the Bible says, "There is nothing new under the sun."

    Bob Wright
     
  13. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    Would it be correct to say that with a semi-auto cocking the hammer only cocks the hammer and with a revolver, cocking the hammer also rotates the cylinder. That is almost the same as the difference between single action and double action in my mind; in single actions pulling the trigger only releases the hammer.



    Mateba whore! :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  14. Bob Wright

    Bob Wright Member

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    In Single action fire, the hammer is manually cocked, pistol or revovler. In Double Action fire, the trigger pull lifts the hammer to cocked position and releases it, pistol or revovler. Or, in the case of striker fired pistols, withdraws the striker then releases it.

    In conventional DA pistols, the first shot is fired Double Action, following shots are fired Single Action. In Double Action Only pistols, all shots are fired Double Action.

    As to Revolver vs Pistol, the empty (fired) cartridges are extracted and ejected by action of the pistol. In a revovler, extraction/ejection is done manually.

    Auto revolvers, such as the Webley Fosberry, were auto cocking only, extraction/ejection was still manual done by opening the revolver.

    Bob Wright

    P.S. In a Single Action pistol, the hammer is manually cocked when the slide is locked to the rear. The hammer may be lowered after loading and chambering a round and re-cocked by the thumb when ready to fire. Either way, the hammer is manually cocked.

    And further.........

    Double Action revolvers may be fired (with some exceptions) either Double Action or Single Action. Some Double Action revolvers are set up for Double Action Only (i.e. the hammerless Smiths). Single Action revolvers can only be fired Single Action. Colt originally used the term "Self Cocking" for Double Action Revolvers.

    On a single shot pistol, such as the Thompson Contender, the hammer must be manually cocked, hence is Single Action.

    And, even more.......

    The accepted difference between a pistol and revolver is that a pistol has one chamber, integral with the barrel, while a revolver has multiple chambers, each brought in line with the barrel prior to firing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  15. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Bingo...

    The more accurate term relating to the DAO Auto would be "de-evolution".

    We have DAO's for the same reason we have round point scissors... Some folks "politicians" are more interested in potential liability that in providing the best tool for the job. This combined with poor training is IMHO, the only reason some Police Departments mandate DAO.

    Tack
     
  16. Bob Wright

    Bob Wright Member

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    Maybe so, but I know of many who objected to the shift in the grip required to go from DA to SA. There is a slight change required to go from firing the first shot double action, with a longer heavier trigger pull, to following shots fired SA with its shorter lighter pull. This was especially noticed in the P-38 as I recall. Most law enforcement officers of the day were accustomed to the DA revolver and its long, heavy DA pull.

    Bob Wright
     
  17. Bob Wright

    Bob Wright Member

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    I don't know what I'm doing in this discussion in the first place~I'm way out of my baliwyck. What do I know about autoloaders?

    Bob Wright
     
  18. Pasquanel

    Pasquanel Proud to be an American Supporter

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    Folks tend to make this way too complicated the term SA or DA refers only to the function of the trigger. If the trigger both cocks and fires the handgun it's DA if the triggers only function is to fire the piece its SA.
     
  19. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Bob...

    That's absolutely correct and the reason I always advise folks to stay away from DA/SA's for carry. I experience the same need to "shift my grip" with these and I do not find the different trigger pulls advantageous in any way.

    I don't think it matters if a person chooses an SA only, a DA only, or any of the striker guns and there varying levels of Pre charged spring tension. As long as the trigger pull is consistant from shot to shot, the platform can be mastered.

    I also do not find a "heavier" trigger pull to be any advantage other than the "safety" aspect of not allowing adrenaline present in high stress situations to "pull the trigger" for you.

    Personally, I feel the majority of ND's resulting in the comment of " the damn thing just went off!" are the result of piss poor training where officers are on the trigger rather than indexed on the frame... Or worse... Are actually "staging" their trigger because they were issued a POS with a 12 lb pull... "Hello NYPD".

    Long Story short... If we were all as proficient as we'd like to be, DA triggers on Autos would be the realm of pocket pistols only. ;)

    Tack
     
  20. WebleyFosbery38

    WebleyFosbery38 New Member

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    Gosh, I couldn't help but chime in on this one cause I have a little experience with one of the two Semi Automatic Revolvers made, The Webley Fosbery!

    The only time you need to pull the hammer back is the first round, from then on both the reload and the recocking of the hammer are done via a recoil assisted mechanism. The entire upper receiver group slides back about 1/5" rotating the cylinder and recocking the weapon in one motion then a spring moves it forward again.

    The big gain is no trigger pressure whatsoever, its feather light touch and the reload is fast. It was very popular for target shooting, very accurate and smooth and even won some Olympic Competitions.

    The big loss is loss of power of the round producing that heavy mechanical action. Another problem was it could fail to fully cycle if you had a limp wrist or it had even a little sand or dirt in the mech. Personally, Ive never fired another weapon like it and Ive had my fun with lots of Military and civilian pieces over the years.

    Funny, says its and Automatic on the side but its just a Semi, as fast as you pull the trigger it fires X 8 and no faster. Fun gun!