Stopping Power Riddle?

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by ninjatoth, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

    1,733
    0
    0
    Ok, first off, I am not saying that in any way I believe or trust all of the OSS(one shot stop) % charts out there, but I got to thinking a weird philosophical question on stopping power and here it is- If a 38spl has a 49% oss stopping power with a standard LRN 158gr bullet in a 2" barrel, does a double tap equate to 98% stopping power, or does it stay at 49% oss and give the shooter two chances of 49% oss? Like if I shot a bad guy 5 times, does he have a 51% chance of keeping fighting per shot, and can beat the odds all 5 times and not stop, or does 5 shots equate to 245% oss in which no one could keep fighting because it's more than double what it takes to drop a man?
     
  2. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    15
    38
    There is no "magic bullet" until you hit something on the order of a 50bmg or 20mm cannon shell...

    All those charts and graphs are just methods people use to try and quantify a cause and effect when they want to get around the issue of you HAVING to spend time shooting to get good enough to put rounds center mass.

    Self defense boils down to using appropriate ammunituon in a firearm you can land hits middle of the torso of a goblin.

    Example, you can be a damn fine shot with a sw governor but if you load it with 410 shells you broke the rule of using adequate ammunition.

    Pick a handgun or shotgun or rifle that functions well, load it with good ammunition, practice as much as you can keep a firearm at hand at all times

    That is the only time recipe that has been shown to work for as long as man has used weapons for defense. Bout 10,000 years since the first women clubbed the first rapist in the head...
     

  3. McCakie

    McCakie New Member

    112
    0
    0
    I would agree with your 245% theory because if all five shots hit the intended button on the bad guys shirt I can pretty much guarantee he's not gonna be in much shape to fight back... But if ya look at other examples there was a popular rapper who took I believe 7 maybe only 6 9mm bullets including one in the face and he went on to continue making albums


    Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk
     
  4. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,345
    224
    63
    The information was for ONE SHOT stops. Not TWO SHOT STOPS. Different data. One does NOT equate to the other. You can no more add percentages in separate probability events than you can use SpellCheck to change the flavor of your alphabet soup.
     
  5. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

    3,495
    0
    0
    I don't much care for rap either, but I think that's a little overboard. Boy! Talk about harsh music critics!
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  6. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

    1,097
    1
    0
    I don't know where you come up with these but you sure give me lots of laughs :)
     
  7. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

    16,424
    332
    83
    And if the goblin in on dope or schizoid, half a dozen COM hits will not "put him down on the spot" without a CNS hit.

    Handguns just aren't that powerful. None of them.
     
  8. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    15
    38
    Even rifles have issues at times without a cns hit
     
  9. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

    11,342
    15
    38
    Dealing with the Marshall type charts, we also need to remember, they show calculated averages. Also, the sample sizes vary widely, and are not necessarily large enough to have a great predictive value.

    Here is a simplified example.

    The average air temperatures in San Francisco and Indiana are the same: 57 F. While in SF it is also the most common (median) reading, in Indiana it is a calculated average between -17F and +102, and the actual temperature wasn't 57 F on any given day

    That said, the Marshall methodology is sound, just needs to be taken for what it is. (I've been digitally tarred and feathered for defending it)
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
  10. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

    11,342
    15
    38
    Ever heard of street cred? :D
     
  11. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,345
    224
    63
    Well, not many of them- and it's hell trying to find a holster for a .50 BMG pistol....

    50bmghandgun21vr.jpg


    :p
     
  12. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    20,110
    15
    38
    The problem with those charts is they also include stops where one round fired goblin wasn't hit but stopped. They also don't include incidents where multiple rounds fired only one hit and goblin stopped or didn't and it went to chase hand to hand or fleeing.
     
  13. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

    6,624
    1
    0
    This guy was shot in the face by a 7.62x54R. He made a full recovery and went on to become a moose guide for the president of Finland. His wound happened in 1939. In 1939 surgery nor medication was as effective as it is today.

    What is my point? The human body can recover from some horrible wounds. My second point is both the rapper and the soldier stopped fighting for the day. The idea is to stop the attacker.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

    1,733
    0
    0
    It seems like the only real stopping power that most handguns have is a mental one, like the BG sees a gun, he stops because he don't want to get shot. And maybe after actually getting shot with a better "man stopper" round than others, the force is great enough for him to decide to stop and go down resulting in a higher % oss. It seems like with the people that don't go down when they should have, it's because there was no way for their minds to decide to stop fighting because they are on drugs or hyped on on adrenalin for various reasons. All one can be sure of is that a handgun is an effective wounding tool and mental deterrent, that's what I gather.
     
  15. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,345
    224
    63
    C3's thoughts on "stopping power". Not scientific, my own thoughts, your mileage may vary-

    Stopping happens because
    (a) that hurt and/or scared me, don't like it, so I want to leave right now.
    (b) you broke a bone that allows me to stand, walk or run
    (c) you disconnected my brain from the rest of my body by concussing me, disrupting my brain, or severing nerves that connect brain/ body
    OR
    (d) You disrupted the blood supply that keeps my brain oxygenated. I bled out, or went into shock from blood loss.

    Despite the movies, ANY bullet that would knock a man thru the air will also knock the shooter thru the air. That whole pesky "equal and opposite reaction" thing.

    The FASTER the bullet transfers energy to the person, the greater the effect. I refer not to the speed of the bullet, but the rate of energy transfer, and, to a degree, the energy that the bullet has available at time of impact.

    (Zips up Nomex flameproof coveralls) LET THE FREE FOR ALL COMMENCE!
     
  16. WonderingMind

    WonderingMind New Member

    295
    0
    0
    I can't find the link right at this moment, but I remember reading an article about gun shot trauma medicine that if someone is shot once regardless of caliber they have an 80% chance of long term survival. If they are shot two or more times they have a 95% chance of death due to injuries, again regardless of caliber. So I guess the trick would be accurate shooting, or putting more then one extra hole in the bad guy.
     
  17. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

    16,424
    332
    83
    You're correct in a way.

    I can't find the link either, but the study said that ~80 percent of people shot with handguns revocered,

    Approximately the same percetage shot with high velocity rifles died.

    IIRC, the study involved single torso hits only.

    But that doesn't tell the the story.

    Lethality, and so-called "stopping power" are two entirely different things.

    If a man is shot in the arm, and dies from infection 3 weeks later that is statistically scored as a "kill.'" "Stopping power" is defined as instant, or very rapid incapacitation. IOW, terminating aggressive behavior instantly, or very, very rapidly

    LE firearms trainers don't use terms like "wound" of "kill'. We tell students to shoot for "VRI." Very rapid incapacitation.

    This often occurs from a non-fatal wound. i.e., a man with a knife, shot in the kneecap is "stopped." A man with a gun should get a double tap, COM.
     
  18. Mercator

    Mercator Active Member

    11,342
    15
    38
    That's true. A reverse example of the killing vs stopping. Real case... A young robbery victim is shot in the flank x1 with a 380. He runs back into a building, calls 911, describes his attacker, goes to the hospital, and dies there from internal bleeding. He wasn't instantly incapacitated, in fact did ok initially, which made the eventual tragedy even worse.
     
  19. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

    5,028
    74
    48
    Are you trying to give me a headache????:p
     
  20. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

    5,028
    74
    48
    Correct your are? ;)Depending on who's 'numbers' you look at only one (1) out of eight (8) or nine (9) people shot with a handgun die.:)