St-T2 in a commercial buffer tube???

Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by NightRaidsONLY, Feb 28, 2013.

  1. NightRaidsONLY

    NightRaidsONLY New Member

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    This'll likely be a very short thread. just need your thoughts on this one real quick, and then Ill let this one die off. haha.
    I just ordered my spike's Tactical T2 buffer and a JP Tuned and polished Extra power buffer spring for my AR. I have a stock POS buffer and spring in there now and cant stand it. I know it'll fit, but my concern is the difference in ID between milspec and commercial tubes. Is the buffer and spring gonna be a little small, and ultimately slop around in there? or will it be alright? What do you guys think. Some please let me know asap, so I can order a milspec tube if necessary!!!
     
  2. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

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    Fitting, your fine. I honestly think that those two items used together will probably induce cycling problems, especially if you use lower pressure ammo.

    I run a stock buffer in spring in most of my builds. I'll move to a h1 buffer if I'm only shooting 5.56. But if your gun cycles fine with a St T2 buffer and extra power spring, your gas system is borked.

    If you want a softer shooting rifle, a brake or compensator is gonna make the biggest difference. Swapping buffers and springs is really a minor, almost imperceptible change.
     

  3. NightRaidsONLY

    NightRaidsONLY New Member

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    REALLY? why would you suppose that buffer/spring combo would induce malfunctions? I would assume that the JP Extra power spring would make for a better bolt return, with increased spring tension. And as far as the T2 goes, I know it's butter. Thats without question. But please...elaborate on that idea about the malfunctions, Im interested. And I definitely have a much nicer compensater on the way. The PVX from HeadDown. But everything I have read said that the JP spring was butter, and coupled well with the ST-T2 buffer...So by all means...educate me.
     
  4. kamakazi

    kamakazi New Member

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    With the added spring pressure, it COULD cause short stroking issues, to make it short and sweet.

    But, I am no where near an expert on buffer weight/springs when it comes to choosing the right combo for you. Just using common sense on my theory.
     
  5. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

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    Butter eh?

    First things first.......

    Is this a range gun? If so tinker with the timing all you want.

    Will this rifle be called on for SD/HD or duty? Don't mess with the timing. If you must, do it like this:


    This is how I start tuning my gas setup. I start by using the cheapest low powered ammo that I plan to ever use. At this time its PMC .223 55gr. Then I start with the stock spring and carbine buffer. If it shoots a few magazines flawlessly I'll step back and evaluate it. I can feel if it feels a bit over gassed. If I feel it needs it, I'll bump it up to a H1 buffer. Shoot it a couple mags at least. Then move up a ST-T2 or a H2. Shoot it for a bit. If the system is severely overgassed, I'll try out a RRA 9mm buffer. Its heavier than a H3. If it cycles that, I cry a little on the inside. T_T

    If this is my HD goto gun, I will run a few hundred rounds through it with my choice setup, just to be sure. I won't stand for a gun that will have a stoppage, just kuz I tinkered with it. How stupid would I be if I did that to myself right? I need to test it out and make sure its solid and reliable, before putting it on rotation for nightstand duty.

    There it is. Baby steps. Honestly when I help tune my friend's builds and my own, I usually find that when I get up to the H2s, I usually start to see signs of short cycling issues. One nice telltale sign is the bolt lock back test. H3s or RRA 9mms buffers in most rifles will short cycle alot (a few times a magazine) and almost always fail a bolt lock back test.





    Wanna know why Spike's makes a ST-T2 buffer? They overgas their rifles. I've had 2 spikes uppers. Both ran Wolf and rocked RRA 9mm buffers flawlessly. Now this means it will cycle any 223 slag you feed it, but it also means that the recoil impulse is harsher, so it'll be harder to keep the muzzle on target and it'll beat up your upper's internals more. Give and Take. I don't own spikes uppers anymore.

    Most higher end rifles like Noveske's and LaRues will tell you that you should use the good stuff for best results. My last Rainier Arms RUC was tuned for the higher powered stuff and would shortcycle wolf and the MFS slag i was feeding it at the time, with the factory H1 buffer. So I tuned the timing by swapping out the H1 for a standard carbine so I could run the cheap stuff for the carbine classes I took with it. It ran flawlessly with the standard carbine.

    Now I will make the following concessions. A sample size of 2, is an insignificant statistical sample size I know. But do you know any other arms maker that supplies their carbines with a H2 buffer setup?

    Every Ar15 is different. Like an individual person. They will group differently with the same ammo even if they are both fresh off the assembly line, one right after the other. They will also need to be tuned differently. One may like a H1 buffer, the other a ST-T2, others a Carbine etc etc. The fun is figuring out whats they like. Just because a JP spring and ST-t2 works on someone else's gun, doesn't mean its gonna work on yours. Honestly with that setup its probably on a 16" with a carbine gas set up. Is your gun setup exactly like those other people? Probably not.

    Please understand I love to tinker with my rifles. Constantly changing and trying out something new. I just got an adjustable gas block and I'm dying to tinker with it. I'm toying with the idea of getting a lw buffer to see if I can get super fast, super smooth cycling, and minimal felt recoil. I am gonna run the adj gas block on a 18" with rifle gas, and standard buffer and bcg. I'm post up what my findings on my next outing. I've made similar mistakes by putting heavy buffers on new builds and buying into the hype. Only to find that my new build shoots like a gd bolt action.

    Bear in mind, I'm only trying to impart a little of hard learned wisdom, and keep you from making the same mistake and headaches that I've had in the past. Its just like tuning a car. You do it one step at a time progressively and mark and observe your progress. Don't go slapping a supercharger, turbo and nitrous on your Ar15 all at the same time. YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2013
  6. NightRaidsONLY

    NightRaidsONLY New Member

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    AgentTikki,
    Wow brother, thanks a bunch for the wisdom. It will be heeded. I really appreciate the time you took to break it down, and share your personal experiences. Some say it best to learn from your mistakes, I'd say the best way to learn is from others mistakes. Thanks again buddy. Baby steps...gotcha!
    Being that I have ordered the parts already, Ill definitely give them a shot, perhaps one at a time tho. Got my DPMS Miculek Compensator, ST-T2 and JP Tuned and Polished Extra Power buffer spring in the mail already. So Ill throw on the compensator first, see how she runs. If I like the recoil, I'll run a couple mags thru.
    I mostly hate the way that ****ty spring sounds in there right now. "SSCRRAAAATTCCH--scratch" every time I charge the weapon. Sounds terrible. So maybe Ill skip the ST-T2 and just run the polished spring...WHo knows!? time will tell. But thanks again bud. Much appreciated. I would say...discussion terminated.
     
  7. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

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    The comp won't affect gassing, only linear compensators like the Noveske KX3 will. But ya, shoot it bone stock first. Then strap on your comp, and get ready to smile. The JM brake is highly regarded. Loud as hell, but it makes a huge difference.

    If the sproing is bothering you. Try this out
    https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/exile-machine-twang-dang-sweet-recoil-sound-amplifier-638.html

    In all honestly, lubing your tube will really help with the sproing. I put some slip2000 gun grease on a rag and ran it over my spring, then lighly spritzed the inside of the tube with some lube. Cut the sproing down considerably.

    Also just remember, You can tell when your dry just by the change in sproing. Don't get rid of it entirely! Its nice, not having to count or look down your ejection port to see if your empty!

    G'night.
     
  8. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    Agent Tikki gave good advice as usual. Each rifle is an individual and as he said a sample of 2 or 3 isn't enough to specifically predict how a setup works with particular ammo. In my sample of five 16" ARs over the last 4 or so years the H buffer works 100% with carbine length and midlength gas, even with low pressure ammo. I'm not big on the Spikes powder buffer, I use the standard three sliding weights. They may be "butter" whatever that means but I'll let someone else clean up the mess.
     
  9. NightRaidsONLY

    NightRaidsONLY New Member

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  10. fsted2a

    fsted2a Active Member

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    Might not be a bad idea to have an adjustable gas block put in so you can set the pressure for the ammo you are using. The higher end rifles like noveske and DD - will usually eat whatever ammo you feed them.
     
  11. ZeusEcho

    ZeusEcho Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I have the ST-T2 and JP Enhanced Spring in a BCM 16" middy with a BCM BCG. About 1k rounds through it with no issues but I've only used federal 5.56 and .223 so no low power ammo yet.

    I really like the sound and feel of that buffer/spring in that rifle but haven't test other setups to see how it affect the cycling.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  12. ZeusEcho

    ZeusEcho Member Lifetime Supporter

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    To elaborate its quiet and smooth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  13. purehavoc

    purehavoc New Member

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    Every barrel will be different even from the same manufacturer . I have 2, 16" carbine barrels from the same manufacturer , same twist , same FSB, same everything
    One rocks a 4.2oz buffer and cycles even the cheapest low powered ammo , the other chokes all over its self with anything over a 3.8 oz buffer shooting the same cheap ammo . So for a person to just throw stuff together without tuning small steps at a time is looking for problems , Really there is no need for a heavier / stiffer spring unless your so over gassed that you truly need it with a heavier buffer . There are many ways to tune and buffer weight is #1 , it will make or break a rifle on reliability . I pour my own weights for my buffers so its easy for me to throw one together to try out , Most any setup I know I can start around 3.4 oz and still be reliable as the factory carbine buffers are 3.0 oz . I always tell the new guys I shoot with , if it runs on the factory carbine buffer and isnt getting excessive impulse and or recoil leave it alone . Your just messing with disaster for a failure , especially cycling issues .
    Who wants a weapon that wont run 100% ? especially when you may need it most :D
    I wont keep a gun that wont run every ammo reliably , alot of friends are against steel cased ammo , you know they know everything and it wears out the $12 parts faster . Lemme tell ya for just going out and practicing drills and going thru 300-500 rds and I spend $219 per 1000 compared to their $370 @ 1000 rds of brass , I can buy a hell of alot of ejectors , extractors and springs with that $150 so dont let that take away from your fun . I will not keep a upper that steel cases hang up in ,and will not run everything reliably , Why ? because it better be able to run everything reliably that may be all thats available is what it may or may not run on
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  14. fsted2a

    fsted2a Active Member

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    Here is the two options I see in the matter: you can have a good quality gun and it will eat any ammo you feed it, or you can have a lesser quality gun and be forced to buy the more expensive stuff. I think the first option will be cheaper. But getting to the specifics of the matter, I still stand by my stance that you should stay with the same mfr. buttstock, buffer and spring combo unless you really know what you are doing. Havoc sounds like he has the knowledge to play with the buffer weights until he gets it just right, but the rest of us may not. If I were getting JP buffer parts, I would get the entire assembly from them.
     
  15. NightRaidsONLY

    NightRaidsONLY New Member

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    I will post a real range report later but long story short about 500 rds later I can run one or the other but not both. Pretty much no recoil with the Miculek comp. and the combo I have chosen is the buffer that came with it and the jp xp spring. Timing is perfect. Ejection pattern is at 4 o'clock consistently. And besides the first about 8 rds short stroking a little bit I ran bout 500 rds thru it w/o a malfunction. Rifle shoots like a dream and eats any ammo I put thru it but it like 62 grain green tips the best which I get from work anyways so that works for me!