Shooting ability or equipment?

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by cpttango30, Dec 26, 2010.

  1. More shooter ability

    45 vote(s)
    78.9%
  2. 50 50 shooter ability matters the same as equipment cost

    10 vote(s)
    17.5%
  3. What are you stupid equipment is much more important than ability.

    2 vote(s)
    3.5%
  1. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    OK we are seeing a lot of My gun and scope is better than your gun and scope there for your opinion is invalid.

    I see it as a balancing act between Shooter ability. I believe it is 70% shooter ability vs 20% equipment vs 10% just luck. We all know that even if I set a kid down behind a $3k bench gun with a $2500 scope on top. More than likely he is going to turn in an outstanding group because the rifle can. But, from a practical stand point. If you don't have a firm grasp on the basics of Rifle Marksmanship your not going to shoot as good as someone else. I also believe fittness as some influance on how you shoot as well. I know I shot better when I didn't have a Texas sized muffin top hanging off my waist.

    Will a piss poor shoot shot better with a high dollar rig? Maybe from the bench because you are taking quite a bit of shooter out of the equation. Take that same piss poor shooter and hand him a regular rifle make him shoot from standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone and see how he does vs someone who is a good all around shooter. I am sure you will see night and day difference in shooting ability vs equipment cost.
     
  2. Cory2

    Cory2 New Member

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    I believe it is the ability of the trigger yanker more so than the equipment. Just like in the world of cars. Take someone who is inexperienced at driving and put them in a ferrari and take a profesional racer and put them in a mustang and the racer is going to win every time. Same with guns.

    Sure having better equipment will undoubtedly have an impact on your results but having good solid fundementals is more important than anything else when firing a gun. I believe this is more so demonstrated in pistols than rifles, as pistols IMO are all about the shooter. You dont have rests and sand bags to hold the gun steady while you work the trigger. Its all you. I would say a decent pistol will be capable of much more than most people can do. The same goes for rifles to a lesser extent.

    In my opinion blaming your equipment is simply passing the buck. Granted it may very well be your equipment that is holding you back. I know for an absolute fact that no one on this forum or in the world could put 5 rounds from my mosin nagant through a 5 inch hole at 100 yards (unless its pure luck) because my mosin nagant puts 20 inch groups at about 15 yards. The rounds tumble immediately upon leaving the barrel. In general though the blame rests squarly on the shooters shoulders. Give the average Joe a remington 700 or a (insert any ~moa rifle here) and the rifle is going to be capable of far more than they are without lots of practice.

    Ive seen people come to the range with all their fancy gear and $1000 optics and $1500 rifles and get outshot by open sight k98's. When they walk in and see me and my friends huddled over a bunch of 70+ year old rifles they generally turn their noses up. After they shoot we compliment them on their nice stuff.... Point is, the rifle doesnt make the shooter.

    I agree with your percentages tango.

    Edit: I think equipment COST has nothing to do with it. Its all quality. There is garbage out there that costs lots of money too.
     

  3. Highpower

    Highpower New Member

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    Quoted just because I wanted to see that again.
    +1000. Kudos and thumbs Tango.

    Around here that is known as "having the most talent money can buy."
    A few middle age guys show up at every match with the best, of the best, of the best. All the latest & greatest. And get out scored by the 75-80 year old guy that's been shooting the same rifle since the 1950's....

    What's that old saying about the guy that only owns one gun? :cool:
     
  4. Hawg

    Hawg New Member

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    A lot of it depends on equipment but a lot of it depends on shooter too. I have a rifle I had built for 1000 yard matches but I suck at it. My gunsmith could shoot it with my handloads much better than I ever could. I can put five rounds into a slightly egg shaped hole at 100 yds and make tiny clover leafs at 200 but much past three and my groups open up dramatically. Some people have it and some don't.
     
  5. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    good equipment will not make a bad shooter better. good equipment will allow a good shooter to get more out of the equipment.

    its the man not the machine.
     
  6. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Good equipment can make a good shooter better. It will not make a bad shooter better. I have shot the pants off of a gent who was shooting a $2500 rifle, using a WW II Mossberg 44US- about a $200 rifle. Did I gloat? Damn skippy I did!
     
  7. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I get people all the time asking "what accessories do you recommend for my new rifle?". My only answer is "a case of ammo". This is especially true with the AR's and AK's. Practice, practice, practice. Plink, shoot off sandbags, try your hand at 300+ yards. Get familiar with your gear and you will learn its shortcomings.
     
  8. joshfireart

    joshfireart New Member

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    boy i would sure like the greatest and best. butt what fun would that be
     
  9. spittinfire

    spittinfire New Member Supporter

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    If you can shoot, you can shoot. If you can't, you can't. A high dollar rifle won't make anyone shoot better and only in the hands of a good shooter will the benefits of that extra money be seen.
    If you don't practice the basics and know your weapon I don't care how much you've spent on your rig, you won't be as good as the guy who does.
     
  10. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    It seems that most people have no clue as to the 3 basic shooting positions. Most ranges these days only allow shooting off the bench, so the shooters skills are never honed. Shooting from a bench w/ a $1500.00 rig at 100 yards will never make a proficient hunter at 100+ yards if at all. Shooting offhand is not as easy as these guys think. Just because the rifle is capable does not mean the shooter is. Knowledge of your equipment is crutial.
     
  11. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    By the same reasoning- having NEVER played 18 holes of golf in my life, I shall now go purchase a $5000 set of clubs, and enter the Masters this year. Any sponsors out there? :p (insert sound of crickets here)
     
  12. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    There is a bit of a misnomer in the question in that most weapons that are produced today in quality, CNC driven, good Q/C production facilities will shoot better than a lot of the people who end up buying them.

    You have to be able to shoot, but that doesn't mean you can't learn to master the basics and then see advantages from improving the platform.

    A common thing we see in the shop is what I call "If I can see it, I can hit it" approach.

    A lot of shooters, even young ones, get better results when they can see, from their rifle, the target they are shooting at and their results. So they opt for higher power optics.

    In this case with the ability to "aim small / miss small" and fine tune right from where you are lying or sitting, you will see even a novice shooter with a basic understanding of how to make subtle changes have improvements in their groups.

    Basically I agree with the poll, that you need to be able to shoot to begin with, but that doesn't mean there aren't other items that could improve a good shooter's results.

    Good poll though Tango and some great info here.

    JD
     
  13. TGReaper

    TGReaper New Member

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    This is a most interesting question.

    From a machine rest there is probably not much difference between my Russian .22 pistol and my Hammerli International .22 pistol. From my hand I shoot much better scores with the more expensive Hammerli.

    Would my offhand shooting improve much if I went from my Mod.70 Winchesters to a high dollar target rifle? Probable not. I tend to agree that it is the man behind the gun to a far greater extent than the price of the equipment.

    In reality I will likely never know,I can not afford a first string target rifle.

    Dan
     
  14. lonyaeger

    lonyaeger New Member

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    This IS a good poll.

    Sure, equipment upgrades will help. My example is one I saw just today. I had a cheap BSA scope on my little 10/22 target rifle and actually shot pretty well in my first competition last weekend. But that crappy BSA 36x scope did me a whole lot better than the 2-7 scope I had on it before that!

    Today, I put a Weaver T-36 on it. It made a world of difference, but not as big a difference as from the 2-7 to the BSA.

    I'm a decent shooter, been doing it all my life, but not great by any stretch. My point is that I think when you get to be a better shooter, equipment can improve you in much smaller steps than when you're a novice.
     
  15. Badshot320

    Badshot320 New Member

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    Having an experienced shooter watching you , pointing bad habits/ mistakes out = Priceless$ Some people and guns just dont shoot well, buying more expensive ammo,optics,stocks,triggers....whatever wont fix the problems more often then not.
     
  16. mach1337

    mach1337 New Member

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    really they go hand in hand a good marksmen can shoot his gun to it limits. when you know your gear/weapon you know its limits and practice within those limits. and as you get better and more profecient in those limits its time for a upgrade. if you dont challange your self your profeciency doesnt go up. but with practice you can become a 1000+ shooter. just because your gun is capable of 1000yrds+ doesnt mean you are.

    when i was a kid and had my first .22 i could hit most things rather easliy but it was scoped. i watched my dad sit on the porch and shoot carpenter bee's mid flight with his nylon 66 open sighted. yeah i did it once or twice be he did it every time why because that was his first .22 and he knew its capability's and had lots of practice with it.
     
  17. ron12301

    ron12301 New Member

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    I have to say that the shooter makes the most difference. Good equipment makes a good shooter better and I am sure that the reverse is also true. To me there is no substitute for practice. I'll probably never be a world class marksman, but I am a lot better now that I am practicing on a regular basis.
     
  18. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    I have seen fools with more money than brains buy the best setup and cannot hit the broad side of a shartmoo master, and I have seen a simple setup shoot MOA with a trained operator.
     
  19. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    The ability of the person behind the gun makes is what makes the shot or not. Equipment is minor to the shooter. I'll give an example of shooter and equipment.

    Who is L.H.O. what did he do and with what?

    In Texas there was a tower, who was in it and what did he use?
     
  20. lonyaeger

    lonyaeger New Member

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    That's simple.....he didn't.