SGT-MILLER Training Thread #2: Adapting

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by SGT-MILLER, Apr 14, 2009.

  1. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    For my next training thread, I will go over a topic that is not covered enough in my humble opinion.

    Today, all firearms makers offer many choices of small sized weapons. More often than not, it's just a cut down version of the full size model (i.e. the Glock lineups). This has created a culture of people trying to adapt a firearm to their lifestyles, versus adapting their lifestyles to the firearm. Unfortunately, this can hinder the amount of protection you offer yourself and others.

    Carrying a concealed weapon is a 100% lifestyle change 100% of the time. If you try to purchase a small weapon for the sake of fitting your current lifestyle, you are short changing yourself. I will quote a line from Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch)

    "A standard or large sized weapon is big to carry, but it is also big in a fight."

    Now, pocket pistols have their place in the world of concealed carry, and something is better than nothing. I urge people not to completely dismiss the idea of carrying a full sized pistol as their defensive weapon. Honestly ask yourself what would you want to have in a fight. Would a small pocket pistol with an effective range of about 10 feet be enough, or would something like a full sized 5 inch 1911, or a 4 inch or above revolver (.357, 44 special, etc...)?

    With the advent of many carry holsters and options that can discreetly hide your service sized firearm, it is worth a good look into.

    For example, my preferred carry piece is my S&W Sigma .40 caliber auto pistol. This is a double stack pistol with a 4 inch barrel and a capacity of 14 rounds of .40 caliber. Even if I decide not to carry an extra magazine, I have 14 rounds of fight in me before I am dry, and my pistol becomes a stick.

    I ask people not to buy into the sales pitches of the gun dealer out there saying that you need a compact Glock, S&W, Taurus, etc... in order to effectively defend yourself. With some easy changes, you can effectively carry a full size piece and never worry if you have enough fight at any given point.

    Pocket pistols have their place, and they are an important asset to the world of defense, but do not dismiss the idea of packing a full size around.

    Remember, most fights happen at 21 feet. That 21 feet is the same whether you are using a pocket pistol or a full sized pistol. Would you rather be using something that is nearing it's max effective range at 21 feet, of something that is right in it's comfort zone at 21 feet?



    God bless, and stay trained, and safe.
     
  2. ranger_sxt

    ranger_sxt New Member

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    Not according to the FBI's 2004 data of all officer-related assaults. That report stated that 3-5 feet was the norm for officer involved use of force incidents.

    21 feet is a long way away from someone to be interacting...
     

  3. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    That may be true in regards to LEOs, but for the general populace, the average engagement is around 21 feet or so, which is 7 yards (which is actually a pretty short distance).
     
  4. Volomon

    Volomon New Member

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    Actually he's right the data is for all situations LEO or not, its roughly 80% of all gun fights happen at 5 feet. This includes general populace. 21 feet is on the cusp of beyond legal engagement range. I'm not an instructor nor a LEO but this is what I have been taught.

    I think cops are taught to keep the BG beyond 21 feet. Though that is not how close he will be when he attacks.

    I was going to ask some questions, but I'm not sure. Since the opinion was based on false info. Also 21 feet is 7 yards. Thats easily hit with any subcompact. So I'm not sure about carrying a full service pistol. Don't LEO use SC for back up?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  5. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    Sounds right, I've always heard that most gun fights are at a distance of 8 - 10 feet and your first few moves should be to move back and to your left or right while drawing your weapon. Being able to move, draw and fire is what will make the difference between you on the ground or the attacker. It is what I practice at the range.
     
  6. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    I invite you to re-read my initial post. I stated in my original post that pocket pistols have their place in the world of defensive carry, but that doesn't mean to totally dismiss the idea of carrying a full size weapon.

    My logic behind this is largely taken from Clint Smith. He is with Thunder Ranch and has alot of credibility in the defensive training circles.

    Training at 7 yards (21 feet) is the standard with dealing with concealed carry qualification courses, military CQC courses (which I instruct), and some LEO drills. 7 yards is the average of pistol engagements. In case you don't know 7 yards is about the length of an average full size truck(depends on the model). That is pretty close. Any pistol made on the market will work at 7 yards, but why limit yourself to something that will not work much farther than 7 yards.

    Pistol engagements can range from point blank range, to 25 yards and beyond. It all depends on the circumstances of the fight.

    Why limit yourself on the performance of your firearm when you don't have to?

    I am just trying to help out members on this forum. If you don't think I am providing the right kind of help, feel free to research someone like Clint Smith, or some of the other great instructors at Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Valhalla (I think that's the name), Gunsafe, or any other reputable defense academy out there.

    Stay safe, and informed.

    P.S. At a distance of 8-10 feet or less, you will not get your firearm to "clear leather" before the BG is on top of you. At that close distance (which sometimes can be only about arms length or slightly more) you need to worry more about hand-to-hand techniques, and defensive drills for gaining some distance from your attacker before you even think about drawing your weapon.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  7. Volomon

    Volomon New Member

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    7 yards is not the average engagement, its the average LEGAL range for engagement, as this is the distance a person with a knife can cross that distance and stab you. What are you a SGT of exactly? I know they teach this to LEOs. The reason people practice at this range is because anything beyond this would most likely land you in prison for forcing the situation against a target that posed no threat.

    I'm going to attempt to find the DATA, but as screwed up as it is. I think I might have got this info from Thunder Ranch.

    Is Clint the one with the wife who has a bee hive hair style?

    EDIT: No wait the 80% is for combat at night. 80% of gun battles occur at night. However the 50% of gun fights are around 5 feet. As per FBI data. 71% around 10 feet.

    Heres the data: http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS-%20What%20We%20Didn%27t%20Know%20Hurt%20Us.pdf

    I hate to use police deaths as the resource but I think the other info was during an instruction.

    The golden rule of skill is proximity removes skill. So I'm not sure about a full size pistol. It might be better off using something more concealable. Especially since they are easier to jam/disarm.

    Which you can do by cover the slide and locking it down with the palm of the hand. While using your own pistol.

    At these ranges you should add martial arts to your gun skills. At the very least learn the pull and twist engagement.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  8. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    I've never practiced with a dummy gun and a real attacker. Guess that better become part of the routine!! Thanks SGT!!

    Damn, it was tough enough to just back-up, move right, draw and fire without falling on my ***!! :D
     
  9. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    Show me what the legal ranges are.

    In my house there are areas where the engagement would be about 10 yards at a minimum.

    Are you saying that it would be illegal to engage someone in my home unless they get a little closer?

    What Really Happens In A Gunfight?

    Read halfway down the article. There isn't much on it, but there is a statement that the FBI study did put the distance at around ten feet, but the PMA study had it around twenty feet (which would be around 7 yards).

    The FBI study was from their compilation of the gunfight resulting in killed FBI agents. This is not an accurate way to gauge all gunfight distances in general.

    I'll try to look up more stuff if you would like.
     
  10. Volomon

    Volomon New Member

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    Any range in your house is acceptable, however most houses don't allow for long ranges anyway.

    What page? Also the FBI studies Law Enforcement Officers, which means all. Also the NYPD one includes everyone and not just LEOs.
     
  11. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    It would be on page 2, halfway down.


    Also here is the main site of the PMA (Police Marksman Association) in case you are interested

    Police Marksman
     
  12. Volomon

    Volomon New Member

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    Second page of this right? http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS-%20What%20We%20Didn%27t%20Know%20Hurt%20Us.pdf

    I'm not seeing it, I think I might be blind. All I know is most engagements happen at conversation range. In the 2000 study it's 69% of less than three yards being common.

    There more data here, http://www.forcescience.org/. I'm getting to lazy however, and can't seem to find any more data on this.

    According to this: http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/1227784-New-tests-Even-inexperienced-shooters-can-be-fast-accurate-when-shooting-cops/

    I think they are aware of this situation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2009
  13. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    I also noticed form your other posts that you own an XD .40 sub-compact.

    I must restate that there is nothing wrong with smaller sized pistols. I am hoping that you aren't feeling offended by this thread in some way because of the fact that you own a sub compact, but I am just stating the basic facts.

    It is possible to carry a full sized weapon around, and many people do it on a daily basis. There is no arguing the fact that a full size handgun will outperform, and provide more flexibility then a sub-compact will any day.

    I also urge you that you understand the limitations of your sub-compact pistol and train accordingly.

    Another tidbit of knowledge is that fact that since most subcompact pistols are just cut-down versions of the full sized models, there have been occasional reliability issues. For the most part, they have all been taken care of, but it's still wise to be watchful for them.
     
  14. Volomon

    Volomon New Member

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    No on the contrary I'm more interested in what you have to say. I think I just got sidetracked by that data. I'm just wondering if carrying a full sized pistol is technically necessary. As of right now I'm in a conceal mentality, I'll have to pick up a larger gun and find out how it plays out. However I'm still weighing the overall need for a large gun. I think even Ayoob carries a 38 snubnose, most of the time.

    At such close ranges I'm not sure the extra size of a gun is worth the hassle. According to the previous link that I gave you, even amateurs can be as good as a champion at such close ranges.
     
  15. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    Here's some videos of some gunfights. You can estimate the distances yourself, and while this doesn't cover ALL of the gunfights that occur, they still paint a decent picture.


    First shootout (I estimate the distance to be 7-10 yards easy)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE93S7m40HU"]YouTube - Kenosha, Wisconsin police shootout[/ame]

    Pay close attention to how far the officers are away from the van. My guess would be around 5-7 yards at a minimum (probably more. I'm not the best estimator)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxWhYE8jyrU"]YouTube - Texas Cops Love a Shoot Out[/ame]

    I estimate the exchange of gunfire in this video to be anywhere from maybe 6-7 yards to about 15-18 yards.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGm7xj_F0cE"]YouTube - Bank Robbers Shooting at Cops[/ame]

    I would also estimate the distance to be more around 15-20 yards at a minimum here.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ceu_AI_-EI"]YouTube - Shootout with Cops[/ame]
     
  16. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    Carrying a full size pistol is not absolutely needed by any means. A compact (pocket) pistol will work just fine.

    The main problem is people do not understand the limitations of those class of handguns. There is a culture of "I can't carry a full-size. It's too big.". It's easier to carry a full sized pistol than most people think.

    It's all up to what you feel is needed as a defense weapon. Be sure to understand your limitations of your weapon fully. Also, don't dismiss the idea of carrying something in a full size. It can be done.

    I'm quoting from Clint Smith: "A big gun is big to carry, but it is also big in a fight."
     
  17. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    Geez Miller!! Just watched the first vid and I've gotta start carrying more ammo!!! :D
     
  18. Volomon

    Volomon New Member

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    What do you think of seasonal wear? I have heard some people carry larger pistols during winter due to you know the thicker clothes.

    I guess I do get what you mean adapt to the pistol whether through clothes or habit, but I think it might be to much for me at the get go I might work up to it though. Start with winter carry and work my way up to see how it is.

    As crazy as it is, I was planning to carry multiple guns anyway, cause I do understand the limitation, I was going to get around this buy carrying multiple. If I add a large pistol in there I'll be up to four guns.
     
  19. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    Yea. That LEO in that first video was rockin' and rollin' for sure.
     
  20. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

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    In the summer, it's harder to carry a full size so that can present an issue. If all you can manage to carry is your sub-compact, by all means, do it and don't feel undergunned in the least.

    If you already own an XD .40 sub compact, I would recommend getting the service XD .40 (4 inch barrel). This way you will maintain commonality between the two weapons, and you won't have to mentally "re-train" every time you switch out. Plus the magazines are interchangable between the two.

    Wintertime allows for easier carry of full sized weapons, but you can conceal something rather large by just wearing the right sized clothes (i.e. not too tight or short fitting).