Selling hand loads

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by MobileMarine, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. MobileMarine

    MobileMarine New Member

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    I own a marine repair shop , we have a closed store front on our property and thinking of sticking my iron in that retail fire to make up for the slow winters .
    Im thinking hunting , fishing and boating supply . Can you legally sell re / hand loads in a retail setting ? Liability ? Worth the hassle ? Startup would be high but overtime it would deff pay for itself . Any advice ?
     
  2. willfully armed

    willfully armed New Member

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    you must have an ffl to lawfully sell reloaded ammunition.
     

  3. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    There could be a reliability issue. Even if an accident is not your fault a slimey lawyer could find some way to sue you.

    I'm not sure, but you may need an ffl to reload ammo that you plan on selling.

    Regular hunting and fishing supplies would be simple enought to sell.

    Good luck with your plans.
     
  4. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    consult with whomever insures your current business on the cost of added insurance for ammo sales. you need a ffl to manufacture ammunition for sale
     
  5. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    Could you possibly sell the brass and bullets seperate or do you need an ffl for that too?
     
  6. MobileMarine

    MobileMarine New Member

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    OK , say I sold the brass , primers , powder , lead to the customer then charged a '' service fee '' to load them ? That sound slike a loop hole but I still smell liability . The gal pops is dating has daughter who is a lawyer , I could get her to make up a waiver / release form .
    I assume you need nothing to sell factory loads ?

    I just read about a cigarette shop in the news that sold the tabaco and papers and let the customers use the in house rolling machine . Not saying I would let Joe shmoe come in and load his own but .
     
  7. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    i believe you can. but im not 100% sure

    that is still manufacturing. doing it without proper licensing will still land you in jail. if you sold the components and let customers use the gear free you would be treading the grey area. not a place i would want my business being.
     
  8. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    You will need to change your screen name to FORMERLY Mobile Marine. Since sitting in FCI Atlanta limits your mobility a lot.

    First, you need an 06 FFL to manufacture ammo for sale. Please remember that the ATF is a TAX COLLECTING AGENCY. And there is a Federal Excise tax to be paid to them for ammo made and sold.

    Boys and girls, can you spell "tax dodger"? Yes, that's right, F-E-L-O-N. Very good, boys and girls. It put Al Capone in the Big House, didn't it?

    Yes, you can sell brass, bullets, lube, presses and dies, powder, primers, and naked pictures of Carmen Miranda without a FFL- but to "engage in the business" of making ammo for sale needs a license.

    Second, one blown up firearm will close your doors (no longer YOUR doors, BTW) if you do not have products liability insurance for the product you made and sold.

    Third- do any of us SOUND like a lawyer? :p
     
  9. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Get a lawyer, become an LLC, get the FFL, sell factory ammo.

    Even IF letting someone come in and load their own could be risky. If the measure is not correct and accidently drops too heavy a charge, well, it was your equipment. The length of dies settings is not compatible with another's rifle, well, it was your equipment.

    Even if you set thing up according to the reloading manual for OAL, drop charge, crimp, AND you tell the customers to leave the settings alone, would they REALLY listen?

    Hey, it is your equipment.
     
  10. DougB

    DougB New Member

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    Good luck with your future business if you care to pursue it. No business from me however. The only handloads that I shoot are those I do myself. Don't take it personally......It's just my way of thinking.
     
  11. MobileMarine

    MobileMarine New Member

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    The liability suits scare me more than than the atf . Sounds like too much of a head ache to deal with . Scratch that one off the list
     
  12. KalashnikovJosh

    KalashnikovJosh New Member

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    And hence dies on the vine yet another perfectly viable and likely profitable small business venture.

    Yet again,due to outrageous over-regulation by the federal government and the litigious populace of a nanny state that thinks blame for their actions are always assignable to someone else.

    And we wonder why our economy is in the crapper.:rolleyes:
     
  13. ttolhurst

    ttolhurst New Member

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    Is nobody to blame if a reload with a triple powder charge blows up your gun and takes a finger or an eye with it?
     
  14. sgtdusmc

    sgtdusmc New Member

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    I reloaded during the 1980's, had the 06 ffl, filed a quarterly excise tax, looked for liability ins, and found that it was not to expensive at the time if you had a large volume. It was just A side line to me and I was produceing at about the rate of $10,000 gross sales per year. The ins that I found was based on gross annual sales and started at $100,000 in sales per year. So it was out of reach. I loaded and sold for about 4 months and specialized in 30-06 for M-1 gurands and 308 for M1A's plus 45 ACP. No problem because I rated myself the formost expert on loading those cal. I had a slam fire in my own M1 that fired out of lock due to using A match primmer. It split the receiver and messed up the bolt locking lugs and locking lug recesses. I only got a face full of burnt powder and a terrible flinch that took a while to get rid of.

    I think that it would A neat business but I would only go into it if I had a lot of time I could give it and enough volume to afford the liability ins. Iv'e never loaded a round for anyone else the mishap.
     
  15. KalashnikovJosh

    KalashnikovJosh New Member

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    Straw man argument.
    There is no need for federal regulation when,by chance, if something like this does happen,the legal recourse of remedy already exists.

    And yes- thats a lawsuit.
    Theres Absolutly nothing wrong with filing a lawsuit over something that serious.
    By deriding "over litigious America",I'm pointing the finger at those people who file frivolous lawsuits that sometimes prompt the government into using such as an excuse to pull more regulation out of its posterior.

    You know.Along with the other 20,000 or so laws it writes every year.

    My basic point is,however,that if the OP wanted to open up a business like this,he should be able to do so without any government regulation whatsoever.
    If,and I mean IF,something goes wrong,THEN and only THEN should the government be involved.

    "A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned."
    -Thomas Jefferson

    The fact that jumping thru bureaucratic hoops is causing him to reconsider his plans made it impossible for me to resist mentioning the reality of our economy today-

    That central planning and over-regulation has it in poor shape.

    Because,you know,job creators like this guy can't or won't open up a business,and you know- create jobs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2011
  16. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    This reminds me of how Kinko's Copies worked back in the day. They wouldn't copy the copywritten material for you, but they would provide you with a copier and instructions. :D
     
  17. KalashnikovJosh

    KalashnikovJosh New Member

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    "When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors; when you see that men get rich more easily by graft than by work, and your laws no longer protect you against them but protect them against you...you may know that your society is doomed."
    ~Ayn Rand


    Sorry bkt I couldn't resist.
     
  18. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Josh- I get your point- the reason for the FFL requirement is so that sales can be TAXED. Remember- ATF is the TAX COLLECTOR. They give a hoot about quality? Nope. Quantity? Yep.
     
  19. ttolhurst

    ttolhurst New Member

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    Hardly a straw man. The OP said: "The liability suits scare me more than than the atf . Sounds like too much of a head ache to deal with . Scratch that one off the list ".

    You replied: "And hence dies on the vine yet another perfectly viable and likely profitable small business venture.Yet again,due to outrageous over-regulation by the federal government and the litigious populace of a nanny state that thinks blame for their actions are always assignable to someone else".

    So, the OP is afraid of the liability associated with an ammo reloading business. You blame a litigious populace which assigns blame to someone else. Challenged on this, you reply that "Theres Absolutly nothing wrong with filing a lawsuit over something that serious", essentially negating your entire statement.

    If that's your point, great. But that's not what you said. And the OP wasn't complaining about government regulation, but the risk of having his posterior sued.

    Not everything is a government plot.
     
  20. KalashnikovJosh

    KalashnikovJosh New Member

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    While not everything is a "government plot",its pretty certain that the government plots to be in everything........and yes,the over regulation and taxation,as C3shooter mentions,is certainly enough to hinder small business growth.
    Along with the culture of frivolous legal involvement over every little thing sponsored by the entitlement mentality fostered by the nanny state government,I believe my point is quite clear.
    At least,clear enough to anyone who sees the problem for what it is.

    But in order to clarify my position,lawsuits as a remedy for serious and blatant negligence of another party are a part of how a free market regulates itself.
    Someone sells a defective product,and it causes injury,then of course a lawsuit is in order.

    However,the mentality that ones actions,such as placing a cup of hot coffee between one's legs,and then getting burned by it,are somehow to blame on the seller of the coffee,is absurd.
    This issue is,at least to my reckoning,endemic to our society because people are taught that there is always someone else to blame for their problems.

    To put it in context of an ammunition maker,someone buys a bunch of 9mm Parabellum for his .380,because hes a fool,and his pistol blows up which results in a lawsuit against the seller which would most likely result in an out of court settlement that in turn ends up costing the seller higher premiums on his insurance.
    Also we have another example- someone buying ammunition for a defective weapon,having the gun malfunction,and doing what- filing suit.

    So the customers stupidity,and not the negligence of the proprietor,ends up being a costly court case.

    This is directly attributable to the entitlement mentality fostered by the welfare nanny state.
    Because,you know,its not the fault of the crack addled layabout that he can't get a job,so therefor,productive members of the market have to pay the government to give said blameless and unemployable crackhead a welfare check.

    And its ALWAYS the fault of some corporation or the ''1%'' or those who HAVE,that those who DON'T HAVE,HAVE NOT.

    So the have nots elect politicians who promise them "free stuff" and demand government to take from others to give to them....and there is the entitlement mentality in a nutshell:

    Its ALWAYS SOMEONE ELSE'S FAULT.


    And it not only reaches into small business-

    One of the primary reasons health care costs continue to rise is because of the liability insurance doctors and hospitals have to carry.
    And while if the doctor does something like amputate the wrong limb,a lawsuit is most certainly in order; but the vast majority of litigation brought against doctors are frivolous suits being pressed by ambulance chasing attorneys who thrive off the entitlement complex prevalent in todays society.

    So,having to worry about such lawsuits certainly makes opening a business much more of a burden then a boon.

    This is endemic in our market.
    It causes people to have to buy expensive insurance,and hire expensive lawyers,and so many people who don't want the hassle don't bother.

    Hence,over-regulation and the entitlement mentality costing the economy.
    (not to mention liberty when some buffoon like Obama lets his pet harpy off her leash(pelosi) to create yet MORE regulation(obamacare) to "fix the problem".....)

    Ultimately,this gentleman -the OP- should be able to open a business without fear of frivolous lawsuits or the burden of useless and frivolous government regulation.

    But he can't and he isn't.

    And this is costing either the help he COULD HAVE hired,or the companies whose products he were to need,or both- business and jobs.

    And that lost business,is costing the economy.

    And hence dies on the vine yet another perfectly viable and likely profitable small business venture.

    Yet again,due to outrageous over-regulation by the federal government and the litigious populace of a nanny state that thinks blame for their actions are always assignable to someone else.

    And we wonder why our economy is in the crapper.
    :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2011