Self Defense Shot Placement

Discussion in 'Survival & Sustenance Living Forum' started by Dillinger, Sep 20, 2008.

  1. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

    23,972
    1
    0
    Okay, in the THIS thread, we will be discussing what does and what does not work for shot placement in a defensive, real world situation.

    Our other thread was visited by an expert trainer, Rob Pincus, and a discussion outside of the thread subject bled over. Let's not let that happen again.

    While you may or may not think that the involvement of one person is important, having a professional trainer of armed combatants stop by our forum and contribute his years of knowledge is valuable and relevant to a large cross section of the membership board.

    If you can't keep your personal feelings about another member out of your posts, take it to a personal PM, take it to The Bunker, or log off and chill the F**K out.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but because you don't agree with their opinion doesn't give you license to run roughshod over the thread in pursuit of your personal vendetta.

    Please keep it civil -

    JD
     
  2. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

    23,972
    1
    0

  3. matt g

    matt g New Member Supporter

    3,865
    0
    0
    Center mass allows for easiest shot placement under duress and as such, increases the chances of a fatal shot.

    Only movie stars take head shots.
     
  4. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

    23,972
    1
    0
    I concur with you Matt - I still advocate centering the weapon and unleashing as many rounds as it takes to end the threat at hand.

    Science has proven that each person addresses threats differently, and most people will only be able to process and respond to a single threat at a time.

    While it's nice and fine to think you will be Tom Cruise in Collateral, while in the alleyway, snap drawing your holsted weapon and putting down two bad guys in the blink of an eye - Your average person isn't going to be able that without a lot of training.

    Shoot to end the threat at hand, reassess/reload and proceed. It's all that I practice...

    JD
     
  5. Mark F

    Mark F New Member Supporter

    2,918
    0
    0
    In conjunction with the above, I regurarly practice Intuitive Shooting from various positions such as sitting and crouching. You also need to get proficient in one hand shooting, both left & right.
     
  6. SGT-MILLER

    SGT-MILLER New Member

    2,350
    0
    0
    Practice as many different scenarios as you can. One handed shooting, shooting while lying down, shooting while moving forwards/backwards/side to side, shooting while wounded, etc............

    Think of as many scenarios as you can and practice them. This will help open your mind to the different things that can happen out there.

    I do this with my security defense team at my squadron. We will spend hours just going over different scenarios, and practicing everything from simple engagements to worst-case scenarios with multiple casualties, weapons problems, bad envoirnments, communications failures, etc........

    Another good mental note I learned from my weapons instructor early in my military career.

    "Accuracy over speed, regardless."
     
  7. Rob Pincus

    Rob Pincus New Member

    19
    0
    0
    Dillinger, Thanks Much.

    Guys, in accordance with the thoughts in my article (linked above), the last thing I want is for my opinion to be put up on a magic pedestal. It should be taken from the perspective that it comes..... which includes over a decade of familiarity with the source information that RL357 was resting his position on.

    I received a very cool note via PM from RL where he was making sure that I knew that he wasn't trying to offend me in his post. No problem there.

    Back on topic, for those who were following the other thread, this is what I sent to him:

    At first, I too thought this was a great idea..... over the intervening years, I've come to change my mind about it.

    I've come to the conclusion that it is more important to choose a gun/caliber combo based on your ability to shoot it first, carry it second and enjoy it third. After that, shoot until they are down as best you can!

    In fact, the above paragraph is a summation of 50% (or more) of my book!... so you just saved some money and time, if you were considering reading it ;).

    -Rob
     
  8. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

    578
    0
    0
    Mr. Pincus going on the assumption that you've at some point in your career you've done at least some study on the effectiveness of various rounds and the wounds they have inflicted and or discussed the issue with those that may have studied it .

    Do you have any data/knowledge of which type of wound was the most effectively produced by what ammo/caliber and which is the most consistently effective in ending a persons actions ?

    To put it another way

    Is there any data to find out if more assailants are being stopped by wounds that have caused

    A) Blood loss
    B) Paralysis being inflicted or
    C) some other factor such as shock from being shot or perhaps cowardice in the face of a fight "include immediately killed with the first round/s fired here"

    What style of rounds if any have penetrated deep enough to cause trauma if not a break in the spine and have done so consistently through various clothing including heavy leather jackets ?

    Are hollow points more effective than say a sharp shouldered semiwadcutter at causing blood loss assuming placement is the same .

    Putting concern for unintended secondary targets aside for a moment . Do "pass troughs" seem to stop a person quicker than a round that stops in the body assuming placement is good and the same say a lung hit ?

    Also have there been any studies that might help to determine what types of criminals have proven to be the most motivated and dangerous to the public and willing to engage in a armed fight ?

    For instance would a group or single home invader "one who knows a home is occupied at the time of entry" be more likely to engage in a gunfight rather than run than say a armed street mugger ?

    Thank you for your input
     
  9. Mark F

    Mark F New Member Supporter

    2,918
    0
    0
    Shot placement would be nice... but in the heat of battle raw firepower will be your friend.
     
  10. Rob Pincus

    Rob Pincus New Member

    19
    0
    0
    BIg,

    Lots of BIG questions there.... not all on topic here, but I can answer:


    I don't think that there is much point is trying to predict behavior (such as propensity for attack or "shock factor" after being shot). None of it can be counted on and so it shouldn't make any difference in your preparation or actual defense. Deviants that commit crimes are deviant. There is no doubt that more people use firearms for defense in their homes, but that is probably more a matter of convenience and access not a demonstration of criminal intent in that environment.


    Because human physiology is pretty fragile and I haven't seen a big difference in the calibers/bullets most people carry (38-357,9-40-45), I don't really distinguish between them much. We did a DVD last year with a penetration demonstration section that showed what bullets would be likely to do if you shot them in your typically constructed home and they missed, as far as penetration through walls/rooms. Lots of people didn't like the findings because they misinterpreted what my point was. Just because we showed that Glasers and birdshot penetrated dramaticallly less through a home, didn't necessarily mean that we were advocating their use.

    People want easy answers..... but there aren't any. Defensive firearms are going to be a compromise between ease of use, reliability, convenience of carry, recoil management, capacity, downrange power, price and a host of other factors. That is okay..... get a good gun and practice, don't expect to hedge your bets much with a special gun or bullet.

    -RJP
     
  11. bkt

    bkt New Member

    6,964
    0
    0
    Thanks, Rob. Interesting article -- hard to find anything wrong with it. If only more classes on all kinds of subjects had the same level of capability, humility and interest from the instructor.

    As for self-defense shot placement, I've always been told aim for center-of-mass and keep firing 'til your opponent is down regardless of what ammo/caliber you're using.
     
  12. chopkick

    chopkick New Member

    650
    0
    0
    For what its worth, I believe that no matter what caliber the bullet is, the larger round will always be my best bet. Take the infamous Glaser round; .380 and 9mm are good but who would dispute the superior effectiveness of the same round in .45 caliber? It's really quite simple, in this instance bigger is better. The larger the round, the bigger the wound (i.e. temporary cavity and stretch cavity).
    I could be mistaken but I haven't read any posts addressing the effects of Hydrostatic Shock. This is a reaction caused by fluid filled organs reacting to shock waves created by projectiles that dump a large amount of energy upon impact. The result can be devastating. Some of the effects can range from neurological incapacitation to total rupture of the organs involved.
    Gentlemen, shot placement is extremely important but I don't believe that it is anymore or less important than the ammunition you choose. Like I've said previously, you should experiment with the rounds that you are considering carrying for self defense. See how your weapon reacts, if the round is controllable. If you go to wal-mart and buy ball ammo to practice with then load up with some high-end or exotic rounds for self defense, you may be in for an unexpected and not so pleasant surprise if the time ever comes. I believe that using ball ammo or semi-wadcutters for self defense is not a good idea. First off, you have little or no expansion. Second, why would you want your round to pass completely through the target risking collateral damage to innocents? A hollowpoint or fragmenting round should be your optimum choice as the action (i.e. expansion, fragmentation) creates a larger more debilitating wound channel. No disrespect intended but trying to strike the spine with a frontal shot is a waste. Also, as a round passes through the target it tends to cauterize some of the wound slowing or stopping the blood flow all together. The "experts" (depending on who you contact) say that bullet penetration from 7-11 inches is the optimal.
    As Big001 stated in a previous post, there are no absolutes in a gun fight let alone any type of self defense situation. If you are placed in a life or death situation, I truly believe that all theories and probabilities are useless. If you train regularly, your instincts from said training will take over and you will react without even thinking. I believe you will experience some form of tunnel vision and deal with the threat in a semi automated state. This is not to say that you will become some unwilling robot. But once the adrenalin is released you will experience the flight or fight syndrome. And all your training coupled with the release of this magic drug will make your decision and guide you through this horrific situation in a matter of seconds hopefully bringing you out on top.
    Just my opinion.
     
  13. Defender

    Defender New Member

    272
    0
    0
    The late Jeff Cooper incorporated headshots into his "Modern Technique of the Pistol".
     
  14. Defender

    Defender New Member

    272
    0
    0
    Urey Patrick, former #2 man in the FBI Firearms Training Unit in Quantico, Virginia, has stated that shot placement is very important, but not the only thing that must be considered.

    As he correctly noted, if shot placement was the only thing that mattered, we could arm all of our law enforcement agencies with .22 LR. They would save a fortune when purchasing ammo for duty and training, and could afford far more firearms training than they're currently able to.

    Try telling rank-and-file NYPD and LAPD officers that they're only going to be able to carry .22LR on the streets. You'd see mass walkouts and resignations. No experienced cop in his right mind would consider .22LR as a primary carry duty cartridge on the streets of a major city.

    After the infamous FBI Miami Shootout of 1986, the FBI decided that not even the .38 Special +P and 9mm were sufficient for serious law enforcement work. Which is one of the main reasons why so many police departments around the country have retired those two cartridges for primary duty, and adopted the more powerful .40 S&W in about the last 15 years.
     
  15. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

    578
    0
    0
    Rob let me try to clarify and bring those questions more in line with the topic provided the discussion is open to any realistic self defense shooting to include shooting to protect a 3rd party and not just an ongoing gunfight situation .

    While I concur with your reply there are instances where it may be possible to make an aimed and precise shot placement on an adversary and what I am looking for is just where one would put such a shot to have the highest probability of a stop without appearing to be a cold blooded killer themselves with a head shot .

    Lately at our Metro link "public transportation" hubs we have had gangs as large as 20 people from early to late teens severely beating people for pure pleasure when robbing them .

    Now while it is highly probable that such a mob would disperse when confronted by a armed person there is also the chance enough of them could continue on taking their chances that a person wouldn't shoot or think they might be the lucky one to not get shot .

    Once such a group was within 10ft or so it would be a justifiable case of the use of deadly force yet even with many semiauto pistols having enough rounds to shoot an attacker to the ground would be impossible much less if one were armed with a revolver or low capacity auto and would be forced to take your chances firing maybe one round at each suspect .

    The first round could be aimed with a degree of precision , and the disadvantage of just a COM shot is hitting the sternum and possibly doing limited damage especially with a fast expanding hollow point or a fragmented round as a Glaser .

    So where would you place the shot in the first punk in such a case ?

    If this sounds unlikely please understand twice in my life I have been approached by groups of punks with bats/clubs of 4-6 who thought they were going to have some fun , fortunately they quickly changed their minds when looking down a barrel .

    Personaly I am of the opinion that aiming high enough in the chest to be just at the start of the neck would be the best shot .
     
  16. chopkick

    chopkick New Member

    650
    0
    0
    Big001 sorry to chime in here. But I honestly believe that in the scenario you just laid out, a COM shot is your best choice.
    As far as the fast expanding hollow point or the fragmenting Glaser being possibly defeated by the sternum or a leather jacket. It is highly improbable that that would happen at the range you indicated. Although anything is possible, you must remember that a 9mm Glaser Blue exits the barrel at approximately 1350 f.p.s. If a mans sternum can be fractured with a punch or a kick, I would think that any round at ten feet will do the job.
     
  17. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    11,380
    1
    0
    I don't think hydrostatic shock is a factor at less than 2000 fps. That leaves out most handgun rounds. To stop a determined attacker, one must A. neutralize the CPU (brain shot), B. disconnect the CPU from the body (sever the spine), or C. deprive the CPU of power (oxygen) by bleeding it out.

    A. is a shot at a relatively small, armor plated target. Good marksmanship, decent power and a bit of luck are called for. I have seen numerous rounds stopped by the skull/facial bones (mostly "inferior" calibers like .25 acp and .38 spl non-+p)

    B. is a shot at a relatively thin armor plated target (spine) that must first traverse a significant amount of flesh and bone to reach. Once again good marksmanship, decent power and a bit of luck are needed.

    C. is a shot that can strike one or more of several blood filled areas in the body that will bleed out. The heart is a muscle. FMJ's or small projectiles can and do leave holes that tend to close up and bleed very little. A good HP will leave a bigger hole that will bleed faster. The liver is a large, fragile blood filled organ that does not like to be hit with hollow point bullets. I have been to several autopsies on liver shot bodies. All were massively damaged and blood loss was quite devastating. FMJ's do not cause the kind of damage to livers that will bleed them out quickly, HP's do.

    Blood loss and resulting incapacitation takes several seconds to minutes. Bled out, a brain can function for about 30 seconds. That is a lot of time for the bad guy to hurt you.

    Intermediate barriers must be overcome for the bullet to do it's job. Glass, car doors, sheetrock and even heavy clothing can and will impede the progress of the bullet and make adequate penetration iffy. 9mm and .38 spl can and do lose much of their effectiveness when penetrating intermediate barriers. Bare chested attackers standing out in the open are rare.

    "Use enough gun". Use more gun than you think you will need. For me the 10mm 180 grain Gold Dot at 1300 fps is about right. Will it overpenetrate an unprotected target? Yes. Will it reach a protected target with sufficient energy to still get the job done? I'm betting the answer is yes.
     
  18. chopkick

    chopkick New Member

    650
    0
    0
    Robo, I respectfully beg to differ. If I can rupture a spleen or kidney with a well placed kick just imagine what a 230 grain bullet traveling at about 900 f.p.s. can do.
     
  19. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

    578
    0
    0
    Just had a thought that is about as SciFi as hell .

    What would be cool is if they developed a electronic bullet with limited penetration that upon impact began emitting a certain frequency blast of sound for a short duration of time that would disrupt the nerve functions to the point it could cause paralysis of the limbs but not disrupt the heart , lung , brain functions .
     
  20. chopkick

    chopkick New Member

    650
    0
    0
    That's an awesome concept Big001. I hereby place you in charge of research and development.