Self defense shootings and police dealings thereof

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by triggernomic, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. triggernomic

    triggernomic New Member

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    I was watching the show COPS a few weeks ago, and I saw this guy that had been robbed at gunpoint and shot the robber, killing him at the scene. Before the cops even arrived, the dispatched officer said something along the lines of "just another citizen taking the law into their own hands" like he had done something terribly wrong. They furthered their point on arrival, like he should've done nothing and called the police. Then, they took his gun away as evidence.

    I was wondering why some police are like this, and are they required to give the gun back after a shooting like this? What is the time period of getting it back usually?
     
  2. Jstrong

    Jstrong New Member

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    I've heard stories of people never getting them back,or having them held for so long they gave up on getting them back.Either way expect to be out of a gun for a while and think twice before you take your beloved $2200 les baer 1911 out for a night on the town,you might Just pick up that bersa thunder UC instead
     

  3. AZL

    AZL New Member

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    It largely depends upon WHERE the incident took place as broad answer to your questions.

    Many officers on COPS are pretty much told what party line to spew. If you think for a second that an officer wouldn't get his butt in a sling for stepping "off the reservation" of the current command in his department for a statement made in public...you'd be wrong.

    Was it the dispatcher or the responding officer who made the comment? Remember...dispatchers are NOT officers. They are communications staff, and as such have NO LE standing, regardless of what they may try to get you to believe.

    That being said...some places in the country DO have an attitude like that. It is very much "We have guns, and that sets us apart". It's horse crap.

    I can also see come "creative editing" going on too. The producers edited a statement to sound as though the officer was saying something other than what they actually were. Be that as it may...here in Arizona, with the notable EXCEPTION of my old home town of Tucson which has become the liberal whacko center of Arizona...you'd not hear an officer say something such as that. Even then, it would be a rare cop who would.

    If, in Arizona, you are involved in an SD shooting, your gun may not even be taken into evidence if you are "cleared at the scene" by eyewitness testimony and obvious evidence to supprt your claim of SD (which IS a positive defense in AZ, in other words you do NOT have to prove you acted in SD...the prosecutor has to prove you did NOT). If for some reason it IS taken into evidence...it MUST be returned to you if you are NOT charged, or if you are aquitted at trial. How long a trial will take....is anyone's guess.

    A store clerk in Glendale AZ shot and killed an armed robber. The clerk's gun was never taken, the clerk was never charged, and was "cleared at the scene". SOMETIMES the good guy does win.

    You can bet the weapon WILL be secured at the scene until techs are done, and detectives have been there...that's just plain common sense.

    So, really it depends upon where you are. I have heard from officers in San Francisco, that if a gun comes into evidence...no matter what the disposition of the case...it is melted down LONG before the owner can get it back. THAT SUCKS large! To my mind THAT is a theft by "da gub'ment" of private property if no crime has been committed, and "da gub'ment SHOULD be liable and have to replace your property at fair market value."

    One of the dipwad political hacks in the valley said his department wouldn't return STOLEN FIREARMS to the rightful owners if and when they were recovered. That lasted about a week before he felt the heat being turned up on his butt and backpedaled rather quickly.
     
  4. opaww

    opaww New Member

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    No matter what state you live in expect the weapon to be taken at least until all the legal stuff is over. Some states they give them back in some states they destroy them.

    As far as cops being like that you should remember they are people too, and as with all people they have a lot of differing beliefs. Some are pro-gun and some are anti-gun just like the rest of us little people
     
  5. fmj

    fmj Active Member

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    One of my LEO buds (>>GASP<< i DO have some friends in blue) says of the show COPS, "Thats show is a fine example of how NOT to be a LEO."

    Dunno, i aint one, i just take him at his word on that...i dont watch it.

    I live in a pretty gun friendly, anti slime ball state. But i have always just figured that should "the worst time in my life" come about, i WOULD be spending some time at the gray bar motel and would lose possession of my piece for the duration of that stay.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  6. firedawg60

    firedawg60 New Member

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    I think a lot of the show "Cops" is staged. I mean if you watch it and they do a traffic stop, they sometimes pass a couple of other marked units sitting along side the street as they "roll up" on the scene or what ever. And to me a lot of them get the bigger "billy bad-@zz" attitude when they're on TV.

    But I love the show I saw a few years ago in Dallas when the cops busted in the wrong door thinking the house was on fire. I still laugh when I think about that!
     
  7. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    (Ahem) On THIS side is reality. Over THERE is TV. Please note the difference.

    Watched one episode of COPS where the local PD was running a prostitution sting. Had their bait cop approaching motorists, asking if they wanted to have sex for XX$$. That is SO full of holes a first year legal student could punt every one of those cases out of court.

    (Entrapment- Definition- Causing or encouraging a person to commit a criminal act they would not have.)
     
  8. vincev

    vincev New Member

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    shooting a person that robs you might end you up in far more serious charges AND a big lawsuit.If the badguy has a firearm your odds are good otherwise you do not have the right to shoot[under the law]or kill someone who robs you because a sharp lawyer will try to make a case that your life was not endanger and shooting wasn't necessary.the bad guy meant you no harm and only wanted to take your possessions.If you cripple the bad guy for life you will probably be sued for all the lost opportunities the bad guy will miss and monies he will never be able to earn. I know of a person who killed one of two guys that were severely beating him in a parking lot.If it were not for a video camera in another parking lot he could have been charged with killing an unarmed man.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  9. lonewolf101

    lonewolf101 New Member

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    Some become cop because they were always PICK ON in school so they think a badge and a gun give them the authority they could not get in School!.Not saying ALL COPS are like that but their a few in the ranks.:D
     
  10. triggernomic

    triggernomic New Member

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    Good thing I don't leave the house very often, and I have security cameras. But if I ever needed to shoot, I don't want my gun taken away, or destroyed. They're mine. I paid for em. I would be real hesitant to hand it over to the police without a written statement saying I'm getting it back in the exact condition it was in when given to them. I don't know if that would work, but I would still be very hesitant. I suppose I could get arrested for "making a scene" about it, but guns are expensive, and I take care of them like they were my kids.
     
  11. triggernomic

    triggernomic New Member

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    The guy on the show was some kind of blue collar contracted worker getting stuff out of his truck when he was approached by the robber with a gun in his face. He acted as though he was going to get some money from his pocket and shot the guy with the gun still concealed.The guy was an old-timer and the cops were hassling him pretty bad about it. I'd have shot the guy, too. Who's to say he wouldn't have killed the guy after he got what he wanted. Those cops had no say in telling this guy anything. That's not their job in my honest opinion.

    I've known quite a few cops myself, and they were reasonable people, but I'm sure there's more than a few jerkwads out there on patrol, and the cameras probably beef up their attitude a bit. I was just wondering if this is commonplace attitude among cops in these situations, and if the guns are ever returned. It seems like theft to me.
     
  12. AZL

    AZL New Member

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    Having been the responding officer on more than a few SD and alleged-SD shootings...I can tell you that a righteous shoot is pretty apparent.

    The key is: Being able to articulate to the responding officers WHAT happened, and WHY you took the action you did. Point out critical physical evidence, and MOST of all be cooperative when you are asked (or told) to do something.

    For example:

    "Officer...That man lying over there approached me with a knife demanding money. I believed my life was in IMMEDIATE danger, and I was FORCED TO FIRE MY WEAPON TO STOP HIM. The knife is lying by his right/left hand."

    You have just assumed the mantle of victim AND pointed out in very few words, what happened, and that your action to STOP the assault was FORCED upon you BY the subject.

    Then you say: "I want to cooperate fully, but I am really shaken up right now, and I don't want to say any more until I have my counsel present."

    CRITICAL NOTE TO THOSE WHO WOULD GIVE OR RECEIVE THIS HORSE **** ADVICE: DO NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT START COMPLAINING OF CHEST PAINS OR SOME OTHER NONSENSE BULL**** MEDICAL EMERGENCY TO STALL FOR TIME!

    Once you lie to officers YOUR credibility goes right out the window. Gone. POOF. See ya.

    A few dime store lawyers are now going to say something like: "But but but but but...I don't want the cops to GRILL me at the scene."

    They're not going to. When you made the second part of your statement telling the officer that you are shaken up...and you WILL be...and you do NOT want to answer any more questions until your counsel arrives...they CAN'T ask you any more questions. You have just invoked your fifth ammendment rights...IN A WAY CONSISTENT with being cooperative, but stating clearly that you want your lawyer present.

    As I said...responding officers will be able to see what happened. If you are as calm as you can be under the circumstances, cooperative to officer instructions, i.e. not moving your hands toward you weapon, or sitting down in the back of a cruiser (you are NOT under arrest at this time, just do it. Officers UNDERSTAND that you are badly shaken and are really trying allow you a moment to sit and breathe and take a moment). When medical arrives, they will have you checked out by EMT's as well, and you PROBABLY won't be handcuffed, or if you have been cuffed initially...this is the time, you will most probably be removed from restraint. SOME departments it is policy to restrain a subject in a SD shooting until other officers or detectives arrive.

    Avoid saying things like..."I KILLED that mother****er!" or ANY "tough guy macho mall ninja bull**** tactical teddy bull****". You were FORCED TO FIRE YOUR WEAPON TO STOP HIM from causing you death or otherwise unavoidable grave bodily harm.

    Remember kids...how you articulate what happened goes a LONG way in whther you are cleared at the scene, charged with homicide, or the case is put to the grand jury.

    Do NOT refuse to answer ANY basic questions...just don't go overboard. Tell them what I laid out above and then DONE! You have to give them your name, obviously. But if you clam up and say NOTHING...you have zero control over WHO it painted as the victim, and your initial statement telling officers that the subject tried to rob you will never make it into a report BECAUSE YOU took bad advice and didn't tell officers that or point out the subject's weapon.

    Now...I will NOT debate this. I will answer SPECIFIC questions...if any armchair LA LAW lawyers wants to start the "Yeah buts.....my cousin said...blah blah blah....." I won't answer. I did this for over 2 decades, and I specialized in teaching this

    This is some critical info you may NEED some day. Hopefully that day will never come...BUT...there it is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  13. PanBaccha

    PanBaccha New Member

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    Thanks for the emphasis on articulation, AZL!!
     
  14. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    You need to edit that to say "depending on where you live"
    There are many places that are not nearly so liberal.
    MS castle doctrine, one of the first episodes to be examined, a store owner shot an unarmed man in the back while he was running out the door with a stolen case of beer, the thief was pronounced dead at the scene, somewhere near Jackson.
    He was never charged to my knowledge, and I don't really agree with the shooting, but my point is, some states are freer than others.

    As far as the show, my favorite episode is where they caught a man walking down the street with a hot water heater in a shopping cart. He claimed he found it on the side of the road. They also found a hack saw and pipe wrench in the cart, and the heater was still leaking scalding hot water. Fail. Lol
     
  15. NativH

    NativH New Member

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    Excellent advice AZL and consistent with what the ex-Harris County DA once told me, as well as more than a few officers. And as far as losing your gun, for a short time, or forever. I carry Ed Brown Special Forces 1911's. Great guns, kinda expensive depending on what you call expensive, but a darn fine defensive weapon. Now if I ever have to use one to save my life, my wife's life, or a very good friend's life, who gives a rat's a** if I ever see it again? Someone I love very much is alive and the perp is no longer doing the threat of fatal bodily harm he was when I did what I had to do. Who cares about the gun. Buy another. Just my 2 cents on what a loved ones life is worth, to me.
     
  16. AZL

    AZL New Member

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    I agree...that MAY have been a LEGALLY okay shoot according to the law in that area...but for me...MORALLY....no.

    When I was a kid, the man who owned the TV and radio repair shop ('member when they actually fixed things?) next to my gandfather's service station had been broken into a BUNCH of times. He took to sleeping in the shop. One night a man broke in, and the shop owner shot the UNARMED man in the back of the head with a 12 gauge as he ran empty handed down the sidewalk. LEGALLY...it was justtifed under old "shooting a fleeing felon in flight" laws...but the man died for a broken window and failed burglary attempt. The shop owner admitted that as soon as the subject saw him, he screamed and ran...but was gunned down. As a human being I have a problem with that. As an officer, I would have a problem with that.

    I understand the emotion behind it. Especially after being repeatedly victimized and the frustration that comes along with that feeling of violation...but to kill when there was another way...ugh. He STOPPED the crime in progress, and I would imagine that the guy NEVER would have come back to burglarize that store again even if he had not been killed. So, the effect would have been the same.

    I don't want to shoot someone over beer, or a television, or a few bucks in a cash register. In fact I don't WANT to shoot someone period, especially if there is a way to avoid it. That's just a morally bankrupt and messed up mindset. Make NO mistake...if I BELIEVE lives are at stake, I have no moral or legal issue with doing what you have to do.
     
  17. NC1760

    NC1760 New Member

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    Thank you AZL for a great perspective on this thread.... But I would like to add one more thing about first contact with an LEO after an incident (...and this was touched upon in my North Carolina CCW class also...) ..Whatever you say... never, never, never utter "I'm sorry" at the scene. IF you find yourself in court over the incident and you have some "crusading" local DA that wants to make his or her career by using you as a sacrificial lamb they WILL grill you on that single simple statement. Your advice on what to say and do was very correct.
     
  18. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    "taking the law into our own hands"?

    Well, did the criminal call the cops when he

    wanted to rob this guy?

    Seems like the BG certainly "took the law into his own hands".

    Where can I get a 24/7 police escort to keep all the rest

    of the criminals from "taking the law into their own hands"?

    If our laws didn't suck, and the media wasn't so warped, we

    probably wouldn't need police making sure only

    criminals are armed and free to do what they please,

    to begin with.

    It's beginning to look to me as though the only thing the police

    effectively do is tie our hands, and enable criminals in order to

    justify the necessity of Law Enforcement...
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  19. fmj

    fmj Active Member

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    Good stuff man!!

    I am by no means an expert, but some things i have read on this subject and actually do/would do are.

    Upon arrival of the responding officer(s) first thing to say is "Sir (or officer) i will sign the "complaint report"...this marks YOU as the VICTIM. Point out any physical evidence...then SHUT UP.

    Something else is make up a wallet sized card saying,

    "Officer,

    I would love to help you in your investigation any way possible, but i have been told by counsel not to speak without counsel present.

    Thank you"

    Put it in your wallet with your ID and carry license. It keeps you from saying any more than you have to.....your best defense is SHUTTING UP (as much as possible) and letting the evidence speak for itself.

    See, sometimes i dont speak real well, and have a hard time getting folks to understand what i am trying to say. I am SURE it will be worse under the influence of mass amounts of adrenaline in my blood stream.

    Not sure if its all that good of advice...sounded reasonable to me when i read/was told it. So I printed the card and keep it in my wallet.

    I'll leave it up to the experts (AZL) to decide that.
     
  20. NativH

    NativH New Member

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    It is easy, especially on the internet, to talk about offing someone like it was shooting an old wood plank. I've pulled a guys teeth out of his mouth so he could breathe another 10 minutes waiting for real help after receiving a 45 ACP through the jaw into the brain cavity. As he died waiting for real help I really got a good view of how fragile life really is. Being a killer, whether for right or wrong, will still be a tough thing to swallow for most of us, no matter how tough we think we are.

    Would I shoot to protect someone? My wife saw me go cold blooded once when someone threatened us, while drunk, saying he was getting his weapon and then moving towards his vehicle. Scared the absolute he** out of her to see me like that. Made me tremble too, after the fact. Glad some neighbors saw it for what it was and got him out of there quickly. Tactical training, and way less than many of you guys have, does work and I'm glad to have it. But I really pray I never "have" to shoot because I know what the end result of a triple tap will be. And that is something I really don't want to live with. But it's better than dying for sure.