Self-Defense Shooting is NOT Bullseye Shooting

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by Amsdorf, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Amsdorf

    Amsdorf New Member

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    When I was a new shooter, I obsessed over putting every round I shot into the bullseye (ok, sure, I still do!), but ... it is very important to understand the difference between self-defense accuracy, or "combat accuracy," if you will, and putting rounds in bullseyes.

    The adrenelin is pumping, everything is a blur, you are afraid, shocked and scared for your life....the goal is to get rounds into center mass.

    To put it bluntly, putting as many holes in the center mass of an assailant is the BEST WAY to stop a threat. Obsessing over trying to get all the shots into the same hole is actually going to slow you down in a self-defense situation where the goal is always: TO STOP THE THREAT.

    Here's a video explanation of the concept. Simply put, if you are getting rounds into a center mass area that is about the size of your open hand, or thereabouts, you are doing just fine.

    VIDEO HERE.
     
  2. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    Amsdorf is exactly correct.

    One needs to practice Defense Shooting or you will in all probability be seriously injured or dead in your first confrontation.
    The reason in a defense or combat situation you "Will Do As You Train". You will not have time to process thoughts and actions (Think!) You most generally will only have time to react. Only on a very rare occasion will you have time to plan out your actions. If you have only been training to stand in one location, concentrate on the target, the sights, your grip position, breathing, operating your weapon with Zero Stress or Speed and etc. you will take too much time in a confrontation trying to process issues and become the victim without responding to the threat in time. So with that said as Amsdorf mentioned you must practice defensive shooting.
    like CARDINAL RULE # 1 When practicing *Keeping Your Finger Out Of The Trigger Guard When Drawing The Weapon From The Holster Until It Is Down Range! *When Drawing Keep Your Support Hand Away From The Muzzle At All Times! Be sure there is an adequate safe backstop behind the target for shooting a slight angles. This is because you need to practice drawing and firing for example two or three rounds center chest area and possibly one to the head should an assailant have a vest on. You should practice shoving off the target, with your elbow of the shooting arm against your side and firing rounds. (Once again keeping the support hand from in front of the Muzzle at all times!) Practice Supported moving forward, backward, in addition moving from side to side. Also shooting from cover positions both standing an kneeling. You can make plywood stands as walls or barricades to practice these drills. Well the list goes on! But the bottom line if you only target shoot you will not be mentally prepared for a serious confrontation if all you do is the basic fundamentals listed above in line #5 of this post! It has been reported that only around 22% of the bullets fired in a confrontation in police action shootings hit where the individual wanted them too! And a lot of them train a considerable amount! And even then we have these types of statistics. Imagine if there was no practice what the statistics would be! Once again as Amsdorf mentioned, adrenaline, the body deciding flight or fight response, the speed at which things occur and all play a role in those results. So Practice, Practice, Practice! And above all use EXTREME CAUTION! And practice strict safety when practicing defensive shooting. As safety in any shooting is the Number One !

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    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013

  3. txpossum

    txpossum New Member

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    Okay. Is somebody saying they are the same? However, I do not believe that Bullseye shooting is necessarily bad training for self defense shooting. It teaches accuracy; it teaches concentration; it teaches shooting under pressure -- all factors that translate favorabily in self defense shooting.

    I used to shoot Bullseye; I have also attended self-defense shooting schools. My Bullseye practice was a help in going through that class. Did I use the exact same techniques -- of course not. But being a Bullseye shooter made my self defense skill better.
     
  4. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    TX,

    You are correct! And good techniques and fundamentals are essential and a very important part of learning to shoot and also to progress into defense training. It is good and certainly a prerequisite to what we mentioned regarding Defense Shooting. All that I was referring to in my post if an individual is carrying for Defense, training should go further than just basic fundamental stationary training. One should not just jump into to doing defense training because "it is cool and fun" first of all they could very well have a catastrophe or unpleasant and unsafe issue come about. One must first learn the basics and master them and the operation of the weapon they are carrying. Before working on any defense or combat type shooting. And target shooting is fun since I have also done that and some competition for years. I think that is how most of us here began and "we should have".

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  5. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Agreed. We all know someone who is a decent shot on the range trying to hit targets at the 15 yard mark.

    Take that same individual and add a little stress. Things seem to go down hill.

    We get used to the stress of shooting, and some handle it better than others (compare a noob to a seasoned shooter).

    But add the stress of USPSA or IDPA, and blood pressure goes way up!

    So your mission is to expose more shooters to the additional stress of competing by inviting them to the next competition shoot.
     
  6. Jagermeister

    Jagermeister New Member

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    Do some sit-ups or other exercise and then shoot right away. You will start to understand. The military has a shooting house at my local range so the troops can practice real world shooting. With safety precautions, that is a good idea for civilians too. I like multiple metal human targets, because you get audio feedback right away. I am satisfied as long as I hear the metal sing. My buddy randomly says one through six (amount of targets). I practice on the draw too. My buddy could say on the draw 5, 3, 2. Or, maybe left handed target 2. Options are endless. Combat is more point and shoot then lining up targets. You start to build up an instinct. Front sight only for close range. That is why I use only combat sights, which covers the target. When the range is empty, we walk the range using same principle.
     
  7. Fathead00

    Fathead00 New Member

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    Can you guys give other examples, since our indoor range is not set up for defense? It's just a standard indoor range.:(
     
  8. SSGN_Doc

    SSGN_Doc Well-Known Member

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    You can have paper targets with different numbered circles, or different colors or shapes on the target. You can turn your back to the target and have a friend call out one specific aiming point that you have to turn and fire at. If you cannot draw from a holster at your range you could set the pistol on the table/counter and pick it up to fire.

    As Jaeger stated, you could do some jumping jacks or run in place before he calls out the target. This will get the heart rate up. If your range has retractable targets you could have your shooting partner change the distance as well so you have to shoot at unknown distances. If you don't have a friend to shoot with you can make a deck of cards with the different aiming points on them. Shuffle them and draw one before turning and shooting.
     
  9. GTX63

    GTX63 New Member

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    It's 500' from my back door to our timber line. When I first started teaching my wife some basics, I had her run from the door to a picnic table just inside the trees and pick up her pistol. Immediately after she was look around for gallon jugs of colored water strung from tree limbs, engage, then proceed about 100' down a trail, shooting the containers as she saw them. FYI, she's about 200lbs so it always put her in a state of exhaustion. I never did the run but it sure seemed to work with her.....
     
  10. txpossum

    txpossum New Member

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    Run? RUN? The REASON I CARRY a gun so so I WON'T have to RUN!
     
  11. txpossum

    txpossum New Member

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    Not to get too zen here, but once you learn to become one with the gun and target, it's not overly difficult to swith between different types of shooting or target.
     
  12. Amsdorf

    Amsdorf New Member

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    Groovy, man, totally, groovy.
     
  13. Amsdorf

    Amsdorf New Member

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    Are you trying to kill her?

    Geesh.

    :rolleyes:
     
  14. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

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    How many civilians who survive shootings were combat trained? How many do you know of who were armed with a tricked out Kimbers? It is mostly "I fired the shotgun through the door" and??:eek:
     
  15. Fathead00

    Fathead00 New Member

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    Thanks for the ideas. Me and ZG will have to try that next when we gather enough ammo to go back to the range.;)
     
  16. QueenGlamis

    QueenGlamis New Member

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    Great info! We are in AZ so have the benefit of desert shooting so we don't have a range master to tell us what we can or can't do. :D

    Things we have done in the past after we built a stand up target holder for about 10.00:

    He picks random time to tell me to draw and shoot.
    Close eyes/turn around as he moves the target to a new place and comes back to tell me when to shoot
    Close eyes for 30 seconds, open eyes, acquire target and shoot
    Shoot a full mag, reload and rapidly shoot 2nd mag trying body shots and to heck with the bulls eye. We mark how many each of us get on target vs. who got a bullseye.

    Lots of great suggestions here, I like the heart rate ideas because most of the time you aren't going to be chilling in a camp chair bs-ing while reloading etc. when you need to defend yourself. You are going to be woken up in the middle of the night, or be sitting at a stop light when a threat comes to you or your family.

    I like the idea of setting up a "course" of colored jugs to move and shoot, safely of course. I am about 125 lbs but still might be winded if I had to run it for a while! ;)

    I like the competitiveness for hitting small targets at distance, its fun! Our kids love the 22 pistol and AR22 but we take them shooting and have them shoot the 9mm and AR15 too, and when they hit the man sized target and are disappointed they missed the bulls eye I tell them that the bad guy still has 17 holes in him so they did a great job! :D
     
  17. kbd512

    kbd512 Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I carry a firearm as an option of last resort. If I can run away from the fight, I will. That's not always an option, hence the firearm. In virtually any confrontation, with or without weapons, the party that's most physically fit generally fares better. Skill at arms is also important, but there will be situations where you can't even draw your pistol, let alone get off a well aimed shot at your assailant. In urban areas, where most of us now work and/or live, coming into close contact with other people is inevitable.

    It might have been from teaching martial arts, but I think a crawl, walk, run approach to training is best.

    You won't always have a knife or firearm on you, what then?

    First, learn how to use your body.

    Next, learn how to use improvised weapons.

    After you have proficiency with your body and improvised weapons, then learn how to use knives and firearms.

    Obviously not everyone will have the same level of skill or ability with their body or weapons, but basics first.

    If you are incapable of throwing a punch or using a knife, having a firearm only provides protection when people can't get close enough to hit, grab, or stab you.

    I've seen more integrated training in the past 10 years or so, which is as it should be.

    Just as there are fundamentals with firearms, there are fundamentals for self defense. The most expensive pistol in the world with rounds that hit like Thor's hammer are all pretty useless if you don't have basic situational awareness and an understanding of potential threats and how to avoid or counter them.
     
  18. PanBaccha

    PanBaccha New Member

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    Center mass shooting is what it's all about. Bleed out, bleed out, bleed out!
     
  19. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I hope you are not saying bullseye shooting is useless, or worse, counterproductive. Bullseye is shooting. Trigger time is trigger time. IPSC, IDPA, Bianchi Cup, PPC, IHMSA. Each have their own sets of rules which may or may not hamper a shooter in a "Combat" situation. Bullseye teaches concentration, sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, trigger control. All of which can be beneficial in a "combat suituation. You may not be able to take a minute to perform each action, but each action is used (albeit quickly) to accurately engage in a gunfight or self defense shooting.

    I believe it was Wyatt Earp who said "fast is fine, but accurate is final".
     
  20. Amsdorf

    Amsdorf New Member

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    Robo, of course, I'm not saying that.