Self Defense - Center Mass - Bones

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by PeteZaHut, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. PeteZaHut

    PeteZaHut New Member

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    I understand the best way to incapacitate someone is through massive blood loss, so you aim for organs, thus you aim for center mass. Isn't center mass also the sternum? And aren't all the major organs surrounded by bone? Will a hollow point go through bone or just stop when it gets there?
     
  2. jeepcreep927

    jeepcreep927 New Member

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    Fastest incapacitation is caused by interfering with or damaging three systems, central nervous system, musculoskelatal system and circulatory system, in that order. A good hit to the CNS is the fastest because it's usually "lights out". Destroying support structures like the spine (also probability of hitting the spinal cord resulting in a CNS disruption) or pelvis removes an attackers ability to physically continue. Massive blood loss certainly will cause incapacitation but not as quickly as the other two.

    High center mass is the preferred target because that is where the highest concentration of those systems is located (spine, spinal cord, heart, aorta, etc.) thus providing more opportunities, for lack of a better word, for a round to disrupt one or more of the three systems.

    The sternum and ribs don't offer any significant protection from a bullet.
     

  3. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Center of mass is shooting at the center of a target (which may or may not be a homo sapien). When one aims at "center of mass", what is meant is "don't try to shoot at the edge of the target". You want to hit your target as close to center as possible using as much area needed to guarantee a hit somewhere on target. (How many misses would one have if the bull's eye were at the 3 o'clock edge of the target vs the center?)
     
  4. jeepcreep927

    jeepcreep927 New Member

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    Sorry Dan, I automatically thought of the reason to aim center mass on a human. Assumptions. :eek:
     
  5. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    My clarification is more for the inexperienced. As the OP used COM, the body is correct, but for general reference, COM is used mainly for targets.
     
  6. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    A hollow point handgun bullet is designed to expand from fluid pressure entering the nose. Bone does not cause expansion. Bone can deter expansion by clogging the hollow point.

    Sternums offer little resistance to major power handgun bullets. By major power, I mean calibers that start with a "4" or a .357 Mag.
     
  7. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

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    Best shot is straight into the medulla oblongata, but it's a low-percentage shot. Better to pound half a dozen into the chest and then check for effectiveness. If the chest is hidden, shoot the SOB where you can hit him. A broken pelvis will drop a BG, but he'll likely still be firing. The Mozambique is considered the gold standard by many, and as Robo said, ribs aren't an issue.
     
  8. sweeper22

    sweeper22 New Member

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    Ribs quickly become shrapnel and projectiles themselves. High rib trauma (be it a bullet, a car accident, blunt object) often results in a punctured lung at the very least. So striking a rib upon entry will gerenally only worsen most center mass strikes.
     
  9. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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  10. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

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    Having re-read that part about the belt buckle on a moving target, I'm reminded of basic tackling instruction for football. You body goes where your navel goes, so head-fakes and crazy-legs moves are nothing more than preparatory or distractive efforts to deceive your opponent regarding the true direction you intend to head. If you want to know where the guy is headed, check the abs.
     
  11. gatopardo

    gatopardo New Member

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    The issue of center mass is because for most of us that is the easiest thing to hit, therefore when we open up we direct as much as we can in that direction, at least some rounds should work.

    I saw a video recently where a police woman, obviously highly trained, confronts a deranged man holding a girl hostage with a knife.

    First she gets close enough to achieve a position of control,
    then she distracts the assailant with a bottle of water thrown in front of him, that confuses the assailant,
    she bluffs with the left hand while reaching pistol at about 5:00 O'clock position,
    what happens next is amazing: In one second the police officer gives one, two fast steps forward while presenting her pistol(possibly a 9mm according to the story) and delivers a shot right on the mans face who falls backwards and then, only then, does she deliver three shot to the man's thorax.
    End of story.:cool:


    Weather is a punch, a baseball bat, a bullet, is the head the easiest way to disable a person, almost instantly.
    Heck i knocked out a friend accidentally practicing martial arts once:eek:
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2010
  12. gorknoids

    gorknoids New Member

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    No way to tell where those shots hit (#2 appeared to into the wall behind the guy) but his head looked pretty well intact immediately following #1, and in the final view. I'll watch again, but after 4 viewings, I'm not seeing anything resembling aimed fire, let alone what is described. Help me out here, folks!
     
  13. gatopardo

    gatopardo New Member

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    Maybe you're right

    Maybe you're right, the man's head didn't explode like a water balloon and there are not the traditional splatter signs of a decent shooting, besides, maybe the lady in the video is not even a police officer, she looks more like a nurse to me now, with a conceal carry permit that is, whom on her way home was presented with a desperate situation and having daughters of her on, took it on herself to perform an act of heroism, brutal and desperate perhaps to save the person who at that moment reminded her of her own daughter, a life in danger.

    The more I think about it the more upset I get about how deceiving video making crews are:mad:

    As for my description, hastily laid, I apologize, after detained examination I realized I must have been describing something else altogether:(

    Now seriously, leaving the humor on the side, what do you thing it really happened:confused:
     
  14. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Well for one thing, none of the Asian countries I know of have laws to permit individuals to carry a handgun, especially concealed. She was obviously a police detective, possibly part of a Hostage/Victims team that was acting as a non-aggressive and non-threatening citizen to distract the perp, just long enough to quickly get a shot off.

    If you observe, when he was momentarily distracted, she moved forward quickly to her target while firing to get the best shot, and overwhelm, which was correct.

    Once hit, like most individuals, they are for just an instant, overwhelmed/shocked/confused and knocked off guard as their Fight or Flight response, instantly kicks in. She then followed through quickly to finish the job. Shots were most likely to the upper torso and neck.

    If you have ever been faced in a bad situation and forced to shoot someone, that same exact reaction is 98% accurate and observable. It's the other 2% of reactions, one needs to be prepared for.

    Distraction is always a very good tactic.
     
  15. gatopardo

    gatopardo New Member

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    That makes a lot of sense, wish I knew how they train in the range:confused:
     
  16. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  17. gatopardo

    gatopardo New Member

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    How they train

    The lady in the white coat, she is a pistol;)
     
  18. superc

    superc Member

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    China has two types of police. Unarmed (which is the most common) and armed. They also don't play much. Trials are too expensive. Whatever, the gun is probably shooting a 9mm Makarov type cartridge rather than the 9mm Parabellum Americans are used to playing with.

    Going back to the original question. Loss of blood is one of the slowest ways of stopping an opponent (either two or four legged). It is faster than death by infection, but it is not a desired method of accomplishing most shooting tasks. We train novices to shoot center of mass because that greatly increases the chance of the bullet hitting something important. At the same time we preach we shoot to stop, not to kill. That avoids lawsuits when dealing with humans. Hunters however have to be more accurate and do shoot to kill if they wish to survive or eat their prey.

    The fastest way to kill a human is to destroy the brain. The second fastest is to destroy a major organ such as the heart. This can produce death in 2 to 160 seconds. Death from loss of blood can also sometimes take awhile, although sometimes it is fairly quick. The possibility of three minutes of continuing battle is why non-novice shooters prefer rifles, cover and distance. Compared to heavier boned critters human bones are light and fragile and the human (even with clothes on) is considered a thin skinned animal. Most bullets, even handgun bullets tend to have little problems piercing human skin and bones.

    The situation changes when targeting animals over 300 pounds. Their bones are denser, and sometimes even their hides will stop many kinds of lesser pistol bullets. Some of the most dangerous game is also some of the stupidest. That is you kill them and it takes 20 minutes before they get the message. Unless prepared for this phenomena, often you are dead by then too. For this reason long-lived professional hunters of dangerous game, i.e., Cape Buffalo, Rhino, Bull elephant, Grizzly Bear, etc. often do not shoot for an organ first. Rather instead they shoot the front shoulders. Smash the shoulder bones and the animal often goes down, or at least slows up immensely. Then and only then you finish the crippled thing off. Not sporting at all. But such hunting tactics are usually reserved for proven killers. Landmines work too. :)
     
  19. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    KISS (keep it simple stupid). If you are in a situation where you have to draw and fire center mass is the high % shot. Larger target and anyone in that position shouldn't be thinking about "one shot one kill" It's not over until the other person has left this world. IF it happens it's not like in the movies, one in the head in slow motion and walk away, it's a fight for life. Aim for center mass and keep putting rounds there until the threat is overcome.

    IMO