Self-defence or murder?

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by JonM, Jun 1, 2011.

  1. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    my opinion after watching the vid. he was spot on until he walked up to the kid and fired 5 more into him. at that point its a clear cut case of murder. the jury rendered the proper verdict. this is a key learning lesson on when self defense crosses the line into vigilante style murder.

    for the full news report:

    Self-defence or murder? Outrage as pharmacist who shot 16-year-old trying to rob his shop gets life sentence | Mail Online

    raw video:

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSBBlEhmWNQ]YouTube - ‪Raw Video: Pharmacist Kills Would-be Teen Robber‬‏[/ame]
     
  2. Johnnyb

    Johnnyb New Member

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    It became murder when the kid was (and had been for a length of time) lying defenseless on the floor and the guy walked back up to him and killed him. If I was on the jury I may would have tried for a lesser charge like manslaughter where he still would have been punished, but not to the same extent.
     

  3. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I think the defense contention was that the guy on the floor was still struggling and looking threatening. I just don't think i buy that, BUT i was not there to witness it. It appeared that the one with the gun had already taken off, lowering my impression of the threat level to the "beat him with a stick" level. Heck, dude was in a pharmacy with gunshot wounds; if he was threatening, dump a gallon of alcohol on him & watch him twitch until the ambulance arrives (maybe while holding a lighter).
     
  4. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    the whole coming back thing to shoot again is what he did wrong. even if the goblin had a gun in hand the pharmacist did not appear to have a pressing need to return to the part of the store the goblin was bleeding out in.

    the whole calmly walk over and execute the goblin thing is what is wrong regardless of how much the little sht deserved it.
     
  5. CHLChris

    CHLChris New Member

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    Because it is unclear in the video, is this the order?

    1) Robberitos enter store
    2) Owner shoots back
    3) One is shot, falls to ground
    4) Two runs out
    5) Owner chases Two, who gets away
    6) Owner returns, walking past One
    7) Owner reloads or gets second gun
    8) Owner walks over to One and shoots him, killing him?

    Wow! I don't know about 1st degree murder with a life sentence. If nothing else, adrenaline brought on by brazen gun-wielding robberitos would seem to be some sort of defense.

    But, he seemed to do the absolute WRONG thing and deserves some punishment. I just don't think a life term.

    We don't know what the jury was given as options. My knowledge of criminal law is just TV, but I don't think juries can just choose what crime to find the defendant guilty of. If the prosecution gave them murder or walk free, they perhaps just chose guilty. I think they're right.

    Just don't know about a life sentence.
     
  6. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Yup, he stepped on it big time. The threat was down, hell he could have just walked over there and head stomped the kid once for a final measure, and he probably would be a free man today.
     
  7. Recon 173

    Recon 173 New Member

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    The bad guy committing an armed robbery had nothing coming. I wouldn't of done what the pharmacist did but the only one who can tell us if he felt threatened is the pharmacist. I wouldn't of found him guilty of murder. Maybe some lesser offense. Murder is taking it too far. But the thing is that as a society we are STILL failing to punish the criminals we arrest and convict and we give too many criminals shoulders to cry upon. We need to make them held accountable for their crimes no matter what. Obviously, this bad guy had a real bad day so he paid his penalty. I don't think that we will ever see a really great punishment system any more in our country.
     
  8. jgand72

    jgand72 New Member

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    Once that BG was on the ground, the owner should have called the police and held him at gunpoint until they arrived. I know adrenaline had to be pumping, along with anger, but he had to know that he would be in some trouble for executing the robber.
     
  9. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I thought this one over and came to a simple conclusion: If he wanted to be sure that the robber was dead, he should have made the first shots count more. Maybe he should've used a shotgun or gotten some more range time, but a NY reload followed by a coupdegras just ain't gonna cut it.

    Lesson learned here; i will be scheduling more range time & re-evaluating my SD ammo.
     
  10. dog2000tj

    dog2000tj New Member

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    My feelings are a bit mixed on this :eek:

    As for the criminal I have no regards for him, 16yo or not. He's a thief and I detest thieves. He came into someones place of business and pointed a firearm at the Pharmacist. Whether or not he actually did harm is moot to me. If he wasn't stopped now who knows what would have happened the next time he robbed someone. :mad:

    As for the pharmacist I can't agree with murder charges. Maybe he went overboard but they way I feel about thieves I can't say I agree with that either. He had a gun pointed at him while someone was trying to rob the business he owns. This is his livelihood, how he supports himself and possibly his family. From the looks of the video this is an old timer who possibly spent decades tending his business.

    I've said it before, we are too damned lenient on criminals here. And again the fact that this kid was 16yo shouldn't mean squat! He put on the big boy pants the second he tried to rob someone at gunpoint. In my humble opinion the criminal got what he deserved and the pharmacist is being unfairly judged.
     
  11. Davo45

    Davo45 New Member

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    I've seen this video before and would have to agree with the jury, as others have said, not murder but most definitely manslaughter. As I've said on other threads, once a BG is down he's no longer a threat unless he's able to point a firearm in my direction.

    I don't believe this guy was even armed, if he was I didn't see him with a gun on the video. No doubt he was an accomplice. as such, I have no problem with him being shot initially, but to come back in and reload or get another gun and execute him was uncalled for.
     
  12. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    First of all when it comes to robbery suspects and thieves with wepons it is not that I am insensitive I just don't give a Sheet!
    When you take the conscious decision to go commit a crime and especially with the use of a weapon. A person could and should expect things couls possiblty go bad. But yes I do think after watching the film that the Clerk went a little overboard. I also realize that adrenalin and maybe some fear was involved. But taking into account his military rank and experience I would assume he would have been a little more in control than the normal citizen? The one thing I noticed that when he came back into the store and evidently went over to get the second weapon. He walked by the suspect on the floor and casually with even his back turned to the person on the floor. Seemed to not have any threat at that point. If an active threat or he had felt severely threatened, seems as though he would have been watching that person and the threat as he moved. I never saw subject number 2 with a weapon. If that is true he was also unarmed? Anyway Manslaughter maybe! But first degree murder is a little excessive regarding reacting to an armed robbery situation. People do not always act rational in these cases.

    03
     
  13. knfxda

    knfxda New Member

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    Source: Murder Homicide Criminal Defense Oklahoma, Murder, Second Degree Murder and Homicide
     
  14. knfxda

    knfxda New Member

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    Manslaughter wouldn't work because you would have to demonstrate that he didn't intend to kill him only to harm him.

    Murder in the 2nd works much better. I think you could make a good argument around his state of mind and what defines "premeditated". Every act, just prior to it being comitted is "premeditated". So, it's wholly unfair to act as if him reloading or getting another gun was premeditated.

    You can say that his actions were "imminently dangerous to another person and evincing (evidence of) a depraved mind (disregard to human life)", but I don't think you can argue that he acted "with malice aforethought" (premeditated). He didn't know these boys from Adam until that moment.

    He got the gun because he was still potentially in danger. He shot the guy becuase he acted without a care for that person's life. Murder 2.
     
  15. Davo45

    Davo45 New Member

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    I'm not sure about Oklahoma's criminal code, but Alabama doesn't have a 2nd degree for murder. If Oklahoma has a 2nd degree murder and it fits with what you've said I'd agree with you.

    I guess the prosecution was looking at the fact that the deceased was down and the shop owner didn't seem to think he was a threat when he passed him by to chase the 1st robber. Also, I didn't see the deceased with a gun in a video I saw of this incident. If so, I'm sure that played heavily against the defense as it would be a pretty big stretch to claim you were in fear of an unarmed individual who was down.
     
  16. Davo45

    Davo45 New Member

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  17. Daoust_Nat

    Daoust_Nat Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It looked to me like by the time the Pharmacist got another gun and finished the perp off, he could have had the cops there to take him away. Does not look good for the Pharmacist. Looks like he turned from victim to vigilante.
     
  18. Sonnypie

    Sonnypie New Member

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    He should have gotten rid of the video...
    Then there would have been a bit different perception.

    Of course bullet holes in the floor with blood and vital organ pieces probably would have told the story. :rolleyes:
     
  19. WDB

    WDB New Member

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    Defense is fight or flight, in this case when he came back in to the store there was no fight or flight choice left to be made. If the guy on the ground was still a threat he wouldn't have stepped over him to go get another firearm or more ammo. IMHO he ws pizzed and came back to finish the DB off. That is murder in front of his own survalance camera. Another thought I had is this guy is a military vet and should have a reasonable understanding of when a threat is no longer a threat. THe BG got what he had coming and would have likely bled out with out the extra effort.
     
  20. jwade00

    jwade00 New Member

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    im with the manslaughter charge. unless that kid was still shooting that pharmacist should not have gone back over and unloaded on him. heres where PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE comes into play. if that pharmacist had takin him out with one shot to the dome, he would be at work today, with nothing more than a stain on the floor. now the dude who is educated, pays his taxes, and supported a family, is behind bars with criminals.