Scope base, rings and scope

Discussion in 'Optics & Mounts' started by wittmeba, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

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    Scope bases and rings.

    I'm gonna go see Santa and ask for a rifle scope. But I want to be sure I get what I want and what will work best for me.

    Rifle: .308 Western Field (Montgomery Wards) Mauser 98 bolt action.
    Purpose: Target at 200-300 yards likely with some side-betting against cocky friends :)

    My concern is more focused on the base mounts and rings. Is there any significant difference between 1 and 2 piece base mounts?

    Bases and/or rings:
    A guy at Sportsman's Warehouse said he would mount the base, rings and scope and using a bore laser set it for 25 yards. He has proposed a set of Leupold 2 piece base and Leupold 1" rings. They both mount with small set screws. There doesn't appear to be any way to remove the scope without removing some/all of the hardware. The mounts are not Dovetail which is what I think I want but don't know enough to warrant an argument. I do like some of the quick-mount rings but I don't know if they withstand the recoil.

    I don't have a preference but I'm thinking that if I want to remove the scope for some reason will it have to be re-calibrated when remounted?

    He suggested a Leupold 3X9-40MM VX-1 Scope for $219.00 or Leupold 3X9-40MM VX-1 Rifleman for $229.00. These prices seem reasonable from what I can find online.

    Scopes:
    What is the significance of the Wide, Heavy, Double vortex?

    Comments?
     
  2. ron12301

    ron12301 New Member

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    Here are my thoughts on this and I hope it is of some use to you . First off the make and model of your rifle may limit your choices of mounts/rings.Is there a difference between 1 and 2 piece mounts, generally it is held that one piece mounts are more rigid and solid and therefore stronger. I believe this is true. However I use QUALITY two piece mounts myself and have had no trouble with them. So for me I haven't noticed a lot of difference between 1 and 2 piece mounts and would use either. As to the Leupold mounts/rings, while I think Leupold makes good mounts and rings I like Burris and Talley better. It sounds to me like the guy at SW wants to use Leupold's std. bases with turn in rings,nothing wrong with them but you will have to disassemble them to remove the scope. Most the quick detach rings I'm aware of require you to use their mounts. I don't use detachable rings myself but I've heard good things about Talley and would use them if available. My understanding is that they handle recoil very well and come back to zero when remounted. I would say if you remove the scope with any mounting system you should re-check the Zero after you remount the scope. As to the scope I don't know your budget but if I were you I would want a little more magnification than what a 3x9 provides for the ranges you stated. I think you mean duplex not vortex? if so these are different reticle choices and my advice is to look at each and decide for yourself what you like keeping in mind that a heavy reticle sometimes obscures part of the target at longer distances.
     

  3. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

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    Thanks Ron for your post. You have confirmed my concerns.

    I have returned the bases and rings for the same reason you specified - you have to disassemble the set to remove the scope. Not that I want to remove/reinstall it frequently but I don't want to have to calibrate the scope every time it is removed.

    I also believe SW just didn't have many options that fit my rifle so he railroaded me to what he could offer. I don't think that is all bad as he was trying to fill my request. I think I can do better as I gain understanding of bases, rings and scopes. I have seen lots of Burris and Warne alternatives and will continue searching.

    It appears to me that this type of base
    http://www.opticsplanet.com/warne-mauser-98-riflescope-unaltered-2-pc-steel-base.html
    and this type of ring would be ideal. I prefer the external hex nut (no. 2 or 3) to the Allen wrench or slot screw to reduce the chance of slipping and damaging the finish of the gun or scope mounts.
    http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/leapers-deluxe-1-weaver-style-rings.aspx?a=1336187

    This page from Leupold shows the terms associated with the Reticle - Duplex, Wide Duplex, LR Duplex, etc I just don't know the significance of these terms. It appears to describe the Cross-hair designs.
    http://www.theriflescopestore.com/leupoldvx1.html

    Thanks again for your input. :)
     
  4. ron12301

    ron12301 New Member

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    Glad to be of some help. Warne mounts IMO are very good quality and I wouldn't hesitate using them, Leapers on the other hand are very low end and I would choose something else. The old adage "buy once cry once" has some relevance here. I like allen or torx head screws on my rings and I believe most of the better rings will have these kind of screws, you just have to take care when installing them. Personally I've never had and issue with slipping etc. You are correct those terms duplex,wide duplex etc. do describe cross hair designs.
     
  5. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    It really doesn't matter what brand of ring you get. Make sure the mounts and rings are made of steel. Screws stripping out in aluminum mounts are the death of a scope. The aluminum mount on my shotgun stripped out last hunting season. Since then I have replaced the plain Jane aluminum rings with either steel or quad lock rings. I use a torque wrench when installing both mounts and rings. I use weaver inch lb charts for installation torque.
     
  6. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

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    Ron and JD,
    Thanks for the additional information. Stripping aluminum is easy to do with a heavy hand as I tend to have.
     
  7. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    I'll post some pics and explanations and advantages of the typical two piece mount later tonite.

    I don't let any yahoo touch my rifles its easy to diy with simple tools you should already own if you own a rifle you care about.
     
  8. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Recoil strips the screws in aluminum. It's difficult to over tighten a screw with a torque wrench. I usually put 20 inch pounds on the rings and 60 inch pounds clamping screws. That is the torque that weaver recommends unless there are special instructions for a given set of rings.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  9. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    pictured below are standard two piece base drift adjustable for windage.

    [​IMG]

    the matching rings mate up with front and rear base respectively so initial mounting of the front ring which typically has the hole goes on at a 90 degree angle to the rifle. the rear ring only one screw is removed the base is twisted into position in a swinging motion.

    to get initial line up the front ring and rear ring lower halves are set in place it often takes a wring wrench as pictured

    [​IMG]

    to properly attach the front ring without damaging the ring itself. that wrench runs about 14$. you can do it with a crescent wrench and some padding ut you risk ring damage.

    put the rear base on tighten the screw down that you removed to slide the base on clamping it in place. test fit the scope to front and rear bases twist front base WITHOUT the scope and retest fit till it sits without any stress on the scope. often people (gunsmiths) attach both rings to the scope and force fit them together. this can easily damage the scope.

    once you have the rings setup level the rifle then level the scope using some cheap hardware levels or the wheeler level-level-level system.

    once both are level then torque down the top ring halves using your inch pound torque wrench which any true rifle person should have.

    once its all set the scope is then mechanically zeroed (DO NOT BORE SIGHT AND ADJUST WINDAGE WITH THE SCOPE DIAL!!!! thats another spot gunsmiths screw up) windage is adjusted using the rear base screws and ideally shooting till your left/right is spot on using just the base. this is achieved by loosining the screw in the direction you want to move the scope then tighting the other screw and locking everything back down to test fire. repeat until windage is correct. if you do it right you should never have to touch the windage knob on the scope.

    once you have it all siighted in the scope can be removed for cleaning as needed and will return to zero by removing ONE windage screw and twisting the scope off. so long as the other screw isnt nudged (good idea to lock tite it in place once windage is set) you wont lose zero.

    the benefit of a good inch pound torque wrench is you can change tension on the action screws which can greatly increase or decrease accuracy. improperly tensioned action screws can greatly affect the accuracy of your rifle in a negative way by up to as much as 3 inches of groups size or more. in fact i have a friend that bought a new savage couldnt get it to group better than 6 inches i retorqued his action screws to a nice even 45 inch pounds front back his groups immediately went sub-moa...

    personally i would invest in the simple cheap tools to do your own scope and such it will pay off in the shooting portion as there are damn few gunsmiths that are true smiths and you sure want find one in a big box shop.
     
  10. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

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    Thanks, JonM for the information. I never could figure out how those bases accommodate the rings - but now I think I understand.

    I do want to be able to remove the scope at least at some point in time.
     
  11. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    then you want the mounts i described one or two piece both work fine or a picatinny rail with adm qd mounts.

    one piec rails tend to make loading a bolt gun from the top a lot harder and can sometimes muck with cartridge or shell case ejection depending on rifle design.
     
  12. Hectocotylus

    Hectocotylus New Member

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    Nominated for a sticky.
     
  13. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

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  14. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    the ring has a rectangular piece that fits the slot in the base. rotating it 90 degrees locks it in place and lines it up.
     
  15. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

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    I can see the piece of the ring that drops into the base and turns 90º to lock in place. I'm asking about the other base - one with just small round holes. How does the ring attach to that base? The one you indicate to just loosen one windage screw and then pivot the scope. It is not obvious to me.
     
  16. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    the base of the ring has small wedges which dont photgraph well that the screw heads lock into preventing the rear from moving by counter pressure on each side. you loosen on side and tightent he other to adjust windage whichever way you want and the scope rotates on the front ring base. if your scope is mechanically zeroed these rings line up the bore axis with the scope axis and will track true to as far out as you care to go.

    the problem with picatinny is they have to be machined perfecty and the holes drilled perfectly to align with the axis and the rings have to be made perfectly. now this almost never happens even with the best skilled machinists.

    the offset is you lose accuracy and tracking for utility when you go to a rail system. there is no free lunch one method isnt neccessarily better than others. i like the weaver base system a lot but its pretty much a one trick pony and only really good for dedicated target shooting or or hunting.
     
  17. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

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    Found this picture but it doesn't show any tabs extending into the rear base. The second image has the 90º turn piece and makes sense.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2013
  18. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    my leupold ring bases have litle inlets in the bottom for the screw heads to apply pressure evenly. they are notched square.

    not all bases are made equally like every thing else avoid the ones that arent cut flat square at the bottom where the screws hit
     
  19. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    this might kinda help

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpiSEcZO5uQ[/ame]
     
  20. wittmeba

    wittmeba New Member

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    Thanks, Jon. I just had no idea the small tabs on the rear ring was all there is to holding it in place. Doesn't seem like much but I guess they work fine.

    So once you get this zeroed in, put locktite on one side of the rear windage screws and use the other to remove the scope when needed.