Scenario:

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by nineguy, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. nineguy

    nineguy New Member

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    Our in a convenience store and a guy walks in with a gun to the clerks head.
    1- Do you just smoke em?
    Or
    2- Draw and give him an option?

    Just curious as to what many cc's would do.
     
  2. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    How do you know duder isn't a LEO putting a gun to a robber's head while the robber is standing on the real clerk's head as she kisses the floor and laments dropping out of college?

    I don't carry outside my car. If i did, i would bear in mind that I am not a LEO required to stop robberies. If i was carrying and dude looked more interested in murder than robbery, that would be a world of suck that would probably end up with me spending the night in jail and having to spend a ton on a lawyer.
     

  3. nineguy

    nineguy New Member

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    The reason I ask is, my father was a LEO for 35yrs. I presented this question to him and he told me to smoke him. He also informed me that I (can) use deadly force if my life or another life is on the line. I am on the fence on this one. Yes, I could shoot him to protect the life of the clerk, but on the other hand like orangello stated, the legal portion of it. And also having that on my conciense too. Not a big fan of the prison system!!!!!!!!!
     
  4. Balota

    Balota ... but I used to play keyboards. Staff Member

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    I think I'd draw and give the option. The scenario as described starts with me in the convenience store. If the guy with the gun was a LEO, he'd have announced himself. Since the scenario didn't include that tidbit, I assume it isn't part of the scenario. Naturally, if he'd announced himself, I would not have drawn.
     
  5. nineguy

    nineguy New Member

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    Yes NO LEO involved at all. Just the 3 of you.
     
  6. fmj

    fmj Active Member

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    well if BG already has weapon drawn, your in a bad position....odds of drawing from concealment and getting on target before you get shot is slim, at best!

    So me, i would look for an opportunity to present itself. bout all you can logically do.
     
  7. Polygon

    Polygon New Member

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    Yes, you can use deadly force. However, the DA can prosecute you for it. There can also be a civil suite. The tough part about your scenario is you can't anticipate how the robber will react. If you give them an option they might just start shooting and kill you or the clerk when before he might have just taken the money and left. If you just shoot him he might not be killed on that first shot and same end game.

    There are just so many variables.
     
  8. HOSSFLY

    HOSSFLY New Member

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    Oh please----
    Can't ya'll think of a question- give info- discuss a gun- ANYTHING but this crap AGAIN?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    I agree with a lot of what Balota stated.
    Being a close to 30 year retired LEO and 16 SWAT and trainer. There is a lot to consider including the following. First of all an officer would not have seemingly charged or walked in the with a drawn weapon without a present threat. Agency policy also requires an officer to identify himself verbally if a weapon is drawn in a situation as mentioned and to have his or her badge in plain view, or be holding their Police Badge and ID out with the weapon. As stated he would give verbal Identification. He or she would likely not have the gun held to the head of the clerk either. We just do not do that it is generally center mass. If it was an Officer and he saw you he would also ID himself and give you instructions!
    If I were to come in on or be in a situation like this. Since the potential bad guy can't keep sight and track two people in different areas. I would move to an area for some cover and then have my weapon ready and on the suspect, followed by the order for the individual to drop the weapon "Now". If he was an officer he would quickly relate the word "Now" as related to law enforcement training! If it was an officer he would advise who he was and show proof. If he turned fast on me with the weapon with no verbal response or ID as nineguy stated "quote" Smoke Him! " As trained" I would do what ever was necessary to eliminate the threat!

    03
     
  10. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    State Laws - Read them, Heed them.

    In your scenario, add another person who sees you pulling the gun on the 1st bad guy.

    What are they required to do? Smoke you?
     
  11. BlueTurf

    BlueTurf New Member

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    I think I was close to seeing a situation like this happen once. I was with a friend when we stopped for coffee at a convenience store early one morning on our way to hunting. We had rifles in the truck and loaded handguns. We saw these two ragged-looking guys go in the store. One of them stood near the counter while the other one walked in a different direction and stopped. He started looking around nervously while just standing there. They both kept their hands in their coat pockets. My friend and I saw this happening and we had the feeling these guys were up to no good. We made note of the license plate number of the car these guys were driving. We just sat there for a short while then decided to go inside. This is when the two guys inside suddenly walked out the door and left. The clerk told us she was glad we arrived because she thought the two guys were there to rob her. We gave her the license plate number of their car. She said she would call the police. These days there are a lot of armed robberies because the meth freaks have to support their habit.
     
  12. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    Yes, if everything went "by the book". Sometimes things don't. I was just presenting the "really bad case" scenario of the guy with the gun being an LEO pointing a gun at a robber who was pointing a gun at an unseen clerk. VERY unlikely situation, but possible with Murphy on the books. Heat of the moment, new LEO, LEO with the flu, LEO's sister is the clerk, etc. Having been cuffed-up a few times, it is a stressful situation with a great potential for errors.

    Stuff like this is why i am fairly happy with just "car carry" (as allowed in MS). I am not a LEO; my firearm on the seat is for preservation of my life and optional preservation of the life of another in reeeeeally imminent danger. I know how that sounds, but i have made enough mistakes to know which ones i could live with and which ones, with their consequences, i could not live with. I could get over seeing a stranger killed in a robbery and not stopping it, but i couldn't get over trying to stop that situation, or perceived situation, and mucking it up possibly getting the clerk and myself killed.

    I guess a stranger's life isn't worth as much to me as the potential for my own loss in the event of an error on my part. If it makes it easier to swallow, i wouldn't expect anyone (uniformed or not) to jump in the frying pan with me in such a situation (were i the clerk).
     
  13. Balota

    Balota ... but I used to play keyboards. Staff Member

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    For some reason the scenario as described gave me a mental picture of the BG entering, going straight to the clerk, putting the gun to his head and focusing there. My mental picture had me in the store but the BG is at least ignoring me. I agree that drawing from concealed carry in full view of the BG is very unlikely to succeed. In full view, I'd probably just be wetting my pants.

    Hopefully spending time thinking about this kind of situation (like we are here) will enable a better set of decisions. If BG is focused on the clerk (gun to his head), it may be possible to get behind some cover and draw from there. Gun first, then cell phone if possible. 911. Then start thinking very fast.

    One of many possibilities: Put cell phone on the counter (so 911 can hear better.) Move away from the cell phone (when 911 starts talking it will distract BG). If I can get in position for a shot, my choice would be to give BG the option to drop it NOW. Not a big fan of 2nd and 3rd chances, repeated warnings, negotiations. NOW means NOW to me.

    Of course, it took 10 minutes to think through and type out all this. Probably won't have 10 seconds to figure it out in real life. At the end of the day, you do what you have to do. If that's stand there and hope for the best, then that's what you do. I know what I hope I'll be able to do, but I won't know what I'll actually do until (if) it happens.
     
  14. Durangokid

    Durangokid New Member

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    Hoss Fly that is the best post I have read in some time. I am also tired of the "Wyatt Earp" complex. Gees my dad said I could kill them. Really? Damn even Wyatt Earp was arrested after the shooting at the OK corral.:rolleyes:
     
  15. BenLuby

    BenLuby New Member

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    Does anyone wonder how many times Zimmerman ran through scenario's like that in his mind? Seriously? Not to be insulting, but I'm not a cop. It's not my job to do their job, and I'm not doing anything I view as stupid unless I am 100% sure someone is getting shot, and that is it. They want the money? Have at it. I ain't getting involved in that.
    The legal ramifications are just way too ugly to consider. Using my sidearm is a last resort. Not something I intend to do lightly.
     
  16. nineguy

    nineguy New Member

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    I'm not sitting here saying what I'd do!!!!! I'm just wondering what others would do. And ONLY because my dad (retired LEO) says to "smoke em" doesn't mean that everything he says is the right thing. Maybe because he (was) a LEO, would give him almost every right to do that. But being a conceal carry, I probably wouldn't take that chance and the risk of losing my freedom. Now if BG had his gun on me, then yes I would "smoke em" given every chance!!!
     
  17. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    IF I happen to be in the store, carrying, when 1 BG accosts the clerk,

    (not likely) at

    the front counter, I would be inclined to intervene.

    These guys always seem to get involved in getting themselves

    killed, doing stupid sh**, on the very same day they started

    turning their lives around. I mean, they could have been

    "turning their lives around" by studying a new job skill at the library,

    moving to Indiana, or helping a relative bathe their Collie. But

    robbing a convenience store is what they apparently feel

    will "turn their life around" for them.

    IF the BG had his attention turned on the clerk, I would

    get a bead, then approach, and attempt to knock him out

    while his attention was diverted. HPs are expensive.

    Then I would have to pray this paragon of virtue didn't have

    a weeping mother to slobber all over a democratic judge at any

    hearings on the matter.
     
  18. Ranger-6

    Ranger-6 New Member

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    I would pay cash for my smokes and leave quickly.
     
  19. Polygon

    Polygon New Member

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    Exactly!

    I couldn't agree more.
     
  20. Wrecked

    Wrecked New Member

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    Assuming I can't get to the exit. I am gonna get to cover, hopefully out of sight. Pull my Glock out and use my cell to call the police. To clarify, my Glock will be out for my self defense, not to play Wyatt Earp.