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The only real improvements in semi-auto handguns since 1935 have been in marketing. The biggest changes in firearms has been to make them cheaper to build. Molded plastic instead of machined steel. A man could do anything that is doable with a handgun, with efficiency and style with a Hi power. People keep reinventing the handgun to sell a new handgun, not to make a better one. The same really goes with revolvers, since 1899 there have been very little actual improvement, and as far as that goes, the same goes for bolt action rifles developed in that same golden period of firearm development. A man could be perfectly well armed with no firearm brought to market since 1911 if he was trained properly. As Chuck Yeager said, "Its the man, not the machine."

Back to the Sccy, it is problematic. I will give them a few years to work out their problems before I consider one. The two things I require of a firearm is that it goes bang when I want it to, and doesn't go bang when I don't. The Sccy brand hasn't met that standard yet.
 
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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
The only real improvements in semi-auto handguns since 1935 have been in marketing.
Post 1935: Not nickpicking but the most influential design since 1935 has been with the SIG handguns.Sure enough the Hi-Power started the ball rolling on capacity. That gun also did away with the link. Take a look at HK's, Glock's and some Ruger's. All breech up like a SIG. I'd say that the most influential design in handguns came with the SIG 226 type lock up. Plastic came from HK. You pick.
 
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Post 1935: Not nickpicking but the most influential design since 1935 has been with the SIG handguns.Sure enough the Hi-Power started the ball rolling on capacity. That gun also did away with the link. Take a look at HK's, Glock's and some Ruger's. All breech up like a SIG. I'd say that the most influential design in handguns came with the SIG 226 type lock up. Plastic came from HK. You pick.
But, the question is, is it a big improvement, did it fundamentally change anything? The M-35 was a logical improvement on the 1911, and since it is high capacity and 9MM, that ushered in a new era, I felt that was a better point of reference for the pinnacle of firearm development than the 1911.

Of course, it is pretty damn subjective, but I own the Sig M-17, and the Hi Power and as far as I am concerned, the Sig does nothing that the Hi-Power can't do. I would feel well armed with either, or as far as that goes, with the Beretta 92 or the CZ 75, or my all time favorite the 1911A1. I don't care about what is going on on on the inside as long as they are reliable, and both the Sig and the Hi Power are. I will freely admit that I am as much a Moses Browning fan as some folks here are Trump fans, so I am biased...bigly. I mean, what the hell, I am toting around an obsolete 1911A1. ;)
 

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Many times "cheap" refers to quality, regardless of the price.
Yes, that is true, I could use "inexpensive" in stead of cheap. I do have reservations about the quality, and I will admit that I have no personal experience with this manufacture. I didn't mean to dis on anyone owning one of these pistols, or the Kel-Tec pistol I compared it too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 · (Edited)
Moses Browning fan as some folks here are Trump fans, so I am biased...bigly. I mean, what the hell, I am toting around an obsolete 1911A1.
I ran a hundred rounds through a 1911 clone Wednesday.. It would be my EDC save for the weight. I'm biased as to caliber. We many very satisfactory handguns to pick from. The fact remains that over a hundred years old the platform is widely copied. Anybody that's anybody is making 1911 clone.

For me, I carry a G23. The light weight gun is chambered for a powerful cartridge. The gun has never malfunctioned for me. What does it have in common with the 1911? It's a gun otherwise nothing.

I got two Winchester Hi-walls down in the Skunk Works. That was among the first of the Brownings designs for Winchester. I'm a fan of that one along with my old Ithaca Model 37. Most people don/t know that was a Browning design.
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
I didn't mean to dis on anyone owning one of these pistols, or the Kel-Tec pistol I compared it too.
Many years ago I became interested in Glock's From What I read and heard the G22 was a potential death trap doomed to KB at any moment. Got some experience with Glock's. Now I have three and all are keepers. This includes my G23 carry gun. I've gotten into some deep do-do arguing with Glock Fanboys. That's another story for another day.
 
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Reliability, quality, finish and accuracy are all things that a firearm either has or doesn't have.
But what may fit me may not fit you.
I doubt there are any junk guns on the market, but there are less expensive guns.
Of course the manufactures name is important, Glocks have relied on that as well as S&W, Ruger, Taurus. etc.
But it comes down to what you can afford.
I have a Walther P99QA which is a great auto....heavy, accurate and likely my most expensive pistol.
But I also have a Bersa Thunder, a S&W Bodyguard (.380), a Taurus 38 Super and yes, a Taurus Millennium G2.
By far, the G2 is the best fit, fires very well and is just right for me to carry. It's also a very accurate pistol.
And I have heard nothing but criticism about that model.
I have nothing against Glocks.....just put off the purchase of one because of the crazy ammo prices and current gun shortages.
But I may just get a Sig instead.
 

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I think that the SCCY and similar on the market has been an inspiration for other makers to come up with low end guns. Is this true of Ruger and Smith&Wesson? I'm looking forward to shooting my SCCY shortly.


My take on it is there may have been reports of malfunctions from non-updated firearms. Part of the dance with these handguns is to stay on top of modifications. Yes, I expect to hear screams of outrage. To which I point out there has been a recall on my-G20.3. There was an update on G23.4
There likely were. Happens with Keltec all the time, within the first couple years they have a new product out. A coup;e years in, usually after Ruger clones it, because that's what the LC9 and LCP are, Keltec seens to pick a few up, and reverse engineer them, and the bugs go away.

It's why I didn't buy a PF9 with a plastic mag release, made until 2015. 2015, they went metal, and fixed the other issues they kept getting sent back for. Broke it in with 200 rounds, and only have 4 FTFeed incidents in that 200 rounds, 3 in the first 50.

They are one of those companies that I won't buy the new ones for about 4 to 5 years, for a reason. New models always have issues with them.

Went through the same with my CPX1, same with the wife's, Dad with my step mother's CPX2, and he had none with his CPX 1, bought used,

Not saying SCCYs are issue free, as roughly 40% of new guns, from ALL companies, not just cheap ones, end up being boomerangs, and going home for rework. Some more, some less.

Yes, that is true, I could use "inexpensive" in stead of cheap. I do have reservations about the quality, and I will admit that I have no personal experience with this manufacture. I didn't mean to dis on anyone owning one of these pistols, or the Kel-Tec pistol I compared it too.
Look, if we really want to apply cheap to any firearm, then it needs to be applied to brands like ROHM or the Ring of Fire brands. Cheap fits there, as it does with Hi Point. And none of them claim to be anything but bottom of the barrel cheap, hell, Hi Point OWNS it, with their warranty.

How many other companies can you mail back the pieces, with a video of you intentionally breaking it, and they will send you a new one? Especially when you bought it USED?

When you start getting north of $300, if you are a tradesman making about 6 figures a year, yes, that is cheap. Bring the same price up to a 21 year old college kid, flipping burgers the maximum 20 hours a week to keep their TAP and PELL, that's a couple weeks pay, not a day or two of work. Having to live on what they make, that $300 you could pull out, and light on fire, and not even think about it, is going to take about a month for them to save up, if they are living on stale Top Ramen.

2 to 3 months, to save up for that used Glock.

BTDT. Spent two years living like that, starting my own small business, eating wish sandwiches (Two slices of bread, and wishing you had something between them, starting the business, and paying off student loans. If I hadn't gotten my pistol permit in NY, simply to keep from havign to turn in my parents' handguns, if something happened, even buying my $150 used Rossi 941, fir work, as I was also working overnights for a security comapny, that $150 would have taken almost a year.

And I was working on $20,000 customer bikes, so I also needed a sidearm at work, in my own shop. This was also at the start of the Chopper Boom of the early 2000s, so there were also more expensive customs in the shop, at times. Pretty good incentive to hit the place.

So, sure, when you have others, you can afford to wait and buy that Gucci Glock or WC 1911. Saving up for a standard Glock, likely isn't a big deal either. But for that single mother, living in a **** neighborhood, working two jobs, and raising a kid or two, that SCCY might just be the absolute upper end of what she can afford, especially if she has to apply for a CHL, and take classes, and have to qualify, off the $550 she was able to save up

SCCY is not the gun you want, same with Hi Point, Rossi, or Taurus, but it is the one you get, to protect yourself with, until you can afford to drink the higher end Kool Aid, or a decent used mid tier handgun comes up at a price you can afford. It's why I own things like a P85, bought in 2001, because I couldn't afford a new Glock or the M9 I wanted. It got me a 9 mm I could carry at work, at a price I could afford at the time, just like that Rossi 941 in .38 Special, as my GP100 and my Hardballer were not in company approved calibers.

If I had had the extra cash, it would have been a 92FS or a S&W or Colt, and I would have even considered a G17 or 19, on the used market (Grandfathered, so I could get them with standard mags, not the 10 rounders they came with new, in NY.)

Reliability, quality, finish and accuracy are all things that a firearm either has or doesn't have.
But what may fit me may not fit you.
I doubt there are any junk guns on the market, but there are less expensive guns.
Of course the manufactures name is important, Glocks have relied on that as well as S&W, Ruger, Taurus. etc.
But it comes down to what you can afford.
I have a Walther P99QA which is a great auto....heavy, accurate and likely my most expensive pistol.
But I also have a Bersa Thunder, a S&W Bodyguard (.380), a Taurus 38 Super and yes, a Taurus Millennium G2.
By far, the G2 is the best fit, fires very well and is just right for me to carry. It's also a very accurate pistol.
And I have heard nothing but criticism about that model.
I have nothing against Glocks.....just put off the purchase of one because of the crazy ammo prices and current gun shortages.
But I may just get a Sig instead.

This. ^^

No, that "Cheap" gun is not ideal in some cases. It's not going to take the same round count as a premium one. However, which is going to protect you and your family better better, when you need it?

The Taurus, Rossi, SCCY, Hi Point, or used Jennings\Bryco\Jimenez, you walk out with today, with 50 rounds of JHP, and 200 of FMJ for practice, or the one sitting in the case, or under deposit, that you just dropped the same amount of money on, to hold iy until you can pay it off? And that was just for the gun.

I have a good friend who is a serious fan of 1911s, and was looking for his first handgun. Found a nice Colt, used, for around $1,000, but only had $300 at the time. Shop offered him layaway, 30% down, 3 months to pay it off.

Same shop had a used Hi Point JHP for $125, same capacity, same caliber, and had a sale going on .45 ACP FMJ that had 600 rounds for $75, and defensive JHPs for $20 a box.

He was going to drop the $300 on the down payment, until I pulled him aside, and talked him out of it, He already had a .380 for CC, and was looking for a house pistol.

Ended up leaving with the Hi Point instead. Started a second savings account, that took 15% of his paycheck, at his bank, every week, to save up for something better.

A month later, he and his girlfriend had a home invasion. Dropped te of them, and the other two ran off, using that Hi Point. All he could have paid per month was about $350, so he would have had to fend them off, with an LCP. Whole reason he came by was to say thank you, for talking him onto the cheap option, for now, because it likely saved their lives, as well as his son's, who was up from NY, visiting that weekend.

He got the Hi Point back, after the investigation was done, no charges, as it falls under PA's CD, and picked up a used Kimber for dirt cheap, in a private sale. Added a G19 for her, two months later, and one for himself, as a better CC option.

No, cheap is not your best option, but it can save your ***, just as well as the best options out there can.

Now, on holding up to a high round count, I need to ask? How many rounds do each of you put through your CC handguns, in a year? To hit 5,000 in a decade, you would need to average about 400 rounds a month, in just that one handgun. How many of you do half that, in one gun? Because I sure as hell don't, and we shoot a Lot.

Kind of kills that "Low round count" issue, real quick, when you stop to think about it. The average shooter shoots less than a box a month FYI, so that 5k "limit" it would be up to their kids, to continue the pattern, maybe even the grandkids.

And if it's a sub compact, odds are it's maybe a mag or two a month.

Maybe 1,500 rounds in 3 generations of use.

Just something to ponder, as I only run a mag through my SD pistols, othet than full size, or league use, about once every other month, same for my wife and daughter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Yesterday was the first outing for the SCCY since update. I did have some problems. All these problems appear to be ammo related. I had three light strikes with only one not going off on the second hit. When first shooting this string there was a failure of the slide to go into battery. That was at the start of the string. What I found is the SCCY is ammo sensitive. The dents in the primers looked shallow. A slightly high primer may have been behind the double strikes. I've got a small sample of Hornady premium 147gr. rounds for next time out.

What I was shooting was cast bullets from a Lyman 356402 mold at 125grs. with 5.2grs.of Accurate #5. The gun is enough different so that practice is necessary. This was the test.The target was A B27 at 25 yards. for forty rounds. Twenty one rounds hit inside the 8ring. The gun shot high with rounds hitting at 12:00 in the 7 and 8 rings. Eight rounds were out of the scoring rings. Those rounds from first shooting the gun. I find the gun to be usably accurate but finicky about ammo. Extraction and ejection showed no problems. I plan to so some more shooting. That would be with the same reloads plus a small sample of factory cartidges. I ordered a DeSantis Pocket holster.
 
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Discussion Starter · #70 ·
An extreme text: I was shooting a new batch of 9mm reloads. This target was fired at 25 yards this morning (4/14/21). The only malfunction was that of the reloader. One round did not make it to the taper crimp die. No double strikes. I just wondered it this gun had ever been shot very much.

I have come away from this experience firmly convinced of three factors. First, the guns will function. Make sure you have all the recent updates. Second, is to get a magazine loader. There magazines are hard to load. The most important s to shoot the gun. It's different enough to require extra practice. SCCY is different enough to need more time on range practice.

There were some really bad shots on this targets. Overall not so bad for a tiny handgun at 25 yards. Next. I'm going to run some factory ammo in the gun plus some more handloads. I won't bore you with the details. I will use this gun for a carry piece.

241196
 
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Discussion Starter · #71 · (Edited)
So far this is what I have found about the SCCY. The gun will run but is ammo sensitive. Sensitive means will not run on just any old 9mm cartridges. The extractor replacement cleared up practically all the feeding problems with the gun. Ammo remains, for me, the major concern.

Right shape and right COL: The gun, being ammo sensitive, suggest problems reloading. There are several areas that I had to look to on my gun. I was shooting bullets from a Lyman mold-356402. Hard primers will put you out of business! Period

The nose portion tapers back to the full diameter of he bullet. The sharp angle would would jam up in the chamber. Solution was to set the bullet deeper in the case.Do a plunk test. The nose of the bullet would bump on the feed ramp. Solution is to get a round nose bullet. The gun can run my lead bullets that not exactly the best shape.

My suggestion is to use factory ammo. Hickok pointed out cartridge sensitivity in his review of the SCCY from 2013. The gun will run with the right ammo. The accuracy is more than adequate for close in personal protection. I don't think my used gun had been shot very much if any. Get some practice was a lesson from the gun.

My next hurtle with this gun is to shoot PC'ed bullets just to see if such would work. More later. Take care an be safe.
 
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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
My SCCY is going to be a carry gun. I had two nice leather holster for a G43 that worked great. This was my test of the gun. I had 46 rounds of reloads using the Lyman bullet. The bullet was powder coated. Also, I had a part box of Hornady 147ge. top end defense loads-15 rounds. I fired quickly. Enclosed a photos of the two targets. I had one handloaded round that was balky. It was quickly fixed. The gun had usable accuracy. The gun did well since updated. It worked with a short run of factory 9mm and a longer run with PC'ed lead bullets. Anyway, I'm happy with the gun. YMMV

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
Here is the target that was shoot with the 147 gr. Hornady factory defense loads. At current prices this may have been some of the most expensive rounds I ever fired. I need to shoot the gun some more; It is not a good idea to get a SCCY and carry without shooting.
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There was a time when guns were expensive and ammo was cheap.
What the f*** happened?:devilish:
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
You bought a cheap gun and it seems to shoot good get over it everything’s fine keep it.
I got you covered on cheap. You take one down for cleaning and one may have a different experience. The synthetic part only holds the aluminum frame. The slide works inside this frame. The parts are well finished what few that are. Compared to other guns the SCCY is sort of rinky-dink. Sure enough SCCY's do work but do have limitations. Just make sure the gun has current updates.
 
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I just saw one at a local shop the other day and said Hmmm. I’ve bought lunches for 2 that cost more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
Look, if we really want to apply cheap to any firearm, then it needs to be applied to brands like ROHM or the Ring of Fire brands.
I had to look up Ring of Fire. There were some nice ones in there. I strongly suspect there manufactures do some figuring the some firearms and never fired period. Not fired despite being carried daily.
 
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