Discussion in 'Range Report' started by mahall, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. mahall

    mahall New Member

    What is satisfactory groupings for Conceal weapons(small hand guns) from 20 feet! I've heard, if you can cover 10 out of 10 rounds fired with your hand that's pretty ok!
  2. G30USMC

    G30USMC Well-Known Member Supporter

    I would say that is satisfactory :)

  3. Doc3402

    Doc3402 New Member

    That's a good group, but is it desirable in a self defense situation? It depends more on where the group is. The more organs you hit, the more body systems you hit, the faster the threat will end. Multi-system trauma is desirable. Pinpoint accuracy and half dollar sized groupings are not. I would say that if your hand size group is in an area with multiple vital organs, you're good to go. You don't want it any tighter.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  4. BillM

    BillM Active Member Supporter

    Run flat out for a hundred yards to stress yourself a bit, draw and
    keep them all on a 9" paper plate rapid fire. Still not a true test
    of your ability in a confrontation---but better than standing
    and shooting groups.
  5. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

    The 7 yard range is the SD distance practice range.

    The real problem here is most ranges won't let you

    practice SD draws, or single-handed, and weak hand drawing

    and shooting.

    Oh sure, you can hit the target dead-on using

    both hands...
  6. mahall

    mahall New Member

    Using center mass(heart) as the target! Anything within the radius of your hand should have the potential to be Lethal or at the very least very capable of stopping a threat. I practice from the draw every time I go to the range! But running the 100 yards would likely kill me and void any self Defense Skills that I might have obtained-:)
  7. Fred_G

    Fred_G Active Member

    A little OT, but I would think most ranges would let you acquire and shoot from the low ready, or at the point of your draw where your support hand is on the gun.

    COM is not always the center of the chest. COM is the center of the target that is exposed. An instructor I know suggests cutting a standard B-27 in half vertically. Now you have a target partially behind cover, so COM changes.

    I have gotten some funny looks at the range, but hey, it is 2 for 1 targets. :)
  8. mahall

    mahall New Member

    Exactly, the target is whatever your aiming at. I just used the chest as a reference point. But if you can cover any set of 10 shots with your hand from 20 feet away, that's pretty satisfactory in my opinion! I use a scoring system and challenge myself with every range trip. I see so many people just shoot 100 rounds at one target and it seems there is no point or goal in improving. 2 guns, 2 paper targets per gun, and I shoot in 10 shot groups, usually 50 rounds per gun. 10 points inside the kill zone with the first 5 rounds, 5 points for the 2nd 5. Giving more importance on the first 5 shots. And I take away the same amount of points, outside the Zone! This at least gives me a solid number to improve on. Am I crazy or can anyone relate to needing challenged to improve in just about anything??
  9. manta

    manta Well-Known Member Supporter

    I would say that the group could get bigger if someone was shooting back.
  10. Jagermeister

    Jagermeister New Member

    Yep, no ****! Bullets flying all over the place more like it. :rolleyes:
  11. 7point62

    7point62 Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    We shoot handguns at 10 yards into a 6" square blank white paper. Rapid draw and empty the mag/cylinder. If 90% of the rounds are on paper, that, to me, is decent shooting.
  12. It is good, but don't quit there

    There's a good thread in the Training section about 'Accuracy'. Essentially accuracy is defined by the problem. In short, a self-defense situation requires a different level of accuracy than a long range rifle match. Your criteria of 'hand sized' shot grouping is most sufficient for self-defense in most cases. This could change if your assailant is shooting at you from behind 'cover' and only a portion of his face is exposed.

    I'm not trying to discourage you. I feel a defensive shooter must master the basics of sight alignment and trigger control prior to getting into more advanced levels of shooting - like shooting while moving and moving targets and such. (And I have no idea of your shooting ability overall, by the way.)

    Also, one must learn to wring out the maximum level of accuracy from one's own sidearm and ammunition combination in a calm setting. Of course it will be different should anyone shoot at you, but under stress the average human being seldom does better with precise shooting than when calm. (Adrenaline helps raw strength, but hampers small motor skills and hand-eye coordination.)

    But do not make the mistake of practicing the same drill over and over to the exclusion of all others. One can become very adept at one skill or drill, but not be able to handle another 'problem' at all.

    Oh. Do not practice continuous strings of fire. It is the first shot that is most important; so practice drawing and firing one shot. Then reholster and try again. (Or from the ready if the range does not permit holster shooting.) But get the skill of fast target and sight acquisition for the FIRST shot. (Or point shooting, if you think that will be faster.) But get in the habit of making the first shot the money shot.
  13. nitestalker

    nitestalker New Member

    A 5" inch group fired on a sedate range can easily be a 20" group under stress. Trying shooting in some combat matches where the stress is applied to your scores. ;)
  14. DeltaF

    DeltaF New Member

    There's some good advice here. HOWEVER continuous strings of fire are very important to practice once you've got the basics down. You will have to continue shooting until you stop the threat, and you are responsible for every bullet that leaves the barrel of your gun.

    Being able to place multiple rounds in your target while advancing on it or moving towards cover is a necessary skill in self defense shooting. Unfortunately most ranges won't let you practice things like that due to legitimate safety concerns.

    If you've got consistent groups, you should start practicing reactive shooting, strings of fire and moving and shooting.
  15. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

    Did I miss it or did no one mention the 'time' factor here???:confused:
    When training for 'combat' shooting you need to get your accuracy down then increase your 'speed' to the point you can still get good hits.:)
    "As fast as you can, as slow as you have to":D
  16. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

    When you are too old to run or fight you just have to stand there and shoot. Be wary of senior citizens.
  17. 7point62

    7point62 Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter


    Shooting against the clock is always a great drill.
  18. headhunter

    headhunter Member

    As 7.62 pointed out shooting against a clock can increase stress, for defensive shooting that is good. Try shooting "bowling pins" in a league, practical pistol is good. If you have no moving targets try moving your handgun across the target and squeezing as the gun comes across the target. Shoot in the AM and shoot in the twilight. Take up handgun hunting. An old gunsmith friend practiced by cutting squares out of 2X4 and throwing them into a fast moving creek (DNR might disapprove now days). Be sure to vary your targets.
    For kicks , giggles, and grins a friend with a small CC class invited me to shoot too: 12 at 7 yds, 24 at 15yds., and 24 at 25 yds. I was not pleased and commented that my target looked like a shotgun hit it. He replied the worst was some "8"s. So, he was right- 53 were 9 or better.
    It was windy and the temperature was an honest 4 degrees. I guess my lesson was it always won't be 72 and sunny. This weekend I used my 9 to shoot an opossum that wanted to share the wife's cats food.
    Shoot often- shoot well.