Safety Test

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by Rentacop, Aug 1, 2009.

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  1. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    Here is the government safety test for handling Glocks. Can you pass it ?
    Use dummy rounds. If you touch the trigger or point the muzzle incorrectly at any time, you fail.

    1) "Pick up the gun." ( Pick it up, remove the magazine and check it visually and physically, locking it open . You are expected to check it without being told to do so. )

    2) Load and holster. You must snap the holster.

    3) Draw and demonstrate primary immediate action . ( tap/rack/re-assess )

    4) Demonstrate secondary immediate action. ( Instructor sets up a double-feed. Rip/rack twice/reload with new mag/re-assess.)

    5) Unload. ( rack twice and lock open )

    6) Bench an empty gun. ( Set it down pointed downrange with ejection port up ).

    If you guys already know the test, sorry to bore you, but if there are any new shooters here, they may find it of interest ( I hope ).
     
  2. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Ummmm, well, whenever I handle TUPPERWARE, I try to wear the dishwashing gloves...... :rolleyes:


    Sorry- could not resist- still a fan of STEEL!
     

  3. skullcrusher

    skullcrusher New Member

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    Many holsters use velcro now. Strap is out to in. Perp thinks in to out so if a perp grabs the strap, perp can't work it. Snap the holster seems a little outdated for today's holsters. Also, I still can't figure why law enforcement chooses Glock over many other mfrs. The LEO's I know personally don't carry Glock as a backup. Just typing out loud.
     
  4. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    Gentlemen-
    The test can be used with some other guns than Glock or can be modified to fit the attributes of other guns. I just think it provides a good framework for training people.

    Here's the DA revolver test :
    ( use only dummy rounds, no live rounds in the room )

    1) Pick up the gun ( check it by opening the cylinder without being told to ).

    2) Load 6 and holster.

    3) Demonstrate single-action fire.

    4) Demonstrate double-action fire.

    5) Cock and then demonstrate lowering the hammer on a live round. ( You must place your weak hand thumb ahead of the hammer, get control of the hammer with your strong hand thumb, touch the trigger and remove your trigger finger as soon as the hammer starts down under control, lower the hammer slowly against your thumb nail as you work your thumb out of the way. This alows the hammer block to do its job. )

    7) Unload, counting the rounds and checking the cylinder, using the ejector rod.

    8) Bench the gun. ( must point downrange ).

    Any touching of the trigger when unnecessary or pointing other than downrange results in failure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2009
  5. TelstaR

    TelstaR New Member

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    are you saying that people have failed this test?
     
  6. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    Telstar :
    Yes. People fail the safety test. FPS inspectors can be very picky. Typically, the FPS guy sits opposite the Company instructor, who administers the test. The guard being tested handles the gun between those two people. If he allows the muzzle to go a little to the side, he is accused of pointing it near one of the testers.
    Common errors include pressing the slide lock by mistake instead of the magazine release, beginning a step before being told to, racking the slide the wrong number of times on a particular step, not pulling the slide back hard enough to eject the round when demonstrating primary immediate action, failing to check the gun without being told to do so when first picking it up and failing to say out loud, " Safe and clear " after checking and after unloading.
    Efforts to make the guard nervous help increase the failure rate. Remember that these are not recreational shooters taking the test, at least in the D.C. area.

    The revolver test trips up people who forget which is Single action and which is Double action. Many fail on lowering the hammer on a live round, often by leaving their finger on the trigger too long after the hammer starts down.

    Unfair and abusive behavior by FPS is the rule rather than the exception. Complaints to their top officials accomplish nothing.
     
  7. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    To put this in perspective, canebrake, if you sat a federal employee in front of his office computer and ordered him to boot up, upload, download, demonstrate control/alt/delete and shut down, he'd never be able to do it.

    Yet, they expect a contract guard, who handles a gun once a year, not to make one mistake on the safety test.
    Also : I once told an instructor that I do not "check a gun every time I pick it up" because my personal gun is always loaded and I know it.
     
  8. hydrashok

    hydrashok New Member

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    ...maybe a federal employee from 1970! The federal gov't is run on computers now days.

    I don't expect ANY contract guard to handle a gun once a year. If they do, then I hope they fail... and get the boot. That's what chaps my *** about a lot of police officers!! They don't invest any of their own time or money to become proficient with firearms... yet, the public looks to them to be experts and they just aren't.

    Look at SGT Miller... guess who pays for his range time, firearms, and ammo?? Not the friggin' gov't! HE does! I'd feel better about clearing a house with him than I would a lot of boys in blue!

    As far as not checking your gun... that's a personal choice, but it's one of those things you just don't tell an instructor.
     
  9. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    hydrshok-
    The government may run on computers but I guarantee you the average federal employee is far more inept than the average guard and would blow a simple computer test.
    The government authorities have not yet figured out that my system is better than theirs. Because of their phobias, they require guards to load and unload and stow away guns constantly, which means a guard can be caught unarmed at the beginning and end of a shift , and , of course when off-duty. Ammunition gets damaged and bullets get hammered back into cases from all of the racking and loading, which could cause a gun to blow up if fired.
    By contrast, my personal defense gun is loaded and holstered all of the time, a safer system by far. So when they proclaim that you must check a gun every time you pick one up, I say , " No ". NOTE- Clint Smith advises everyone to check every day to make sure the gun is loaded, but I don't do that.
     
  10. hydrashok

    hydrashok New Member

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    I don't know about that. I'd bet money the average federal employee has a computer at home, and uses it regularly...

    ...unlike the average guard who only handles a firearm once a year. :eek:

    Are you suggesting they allow the guards to take their firearms home so they don't have to continuously load/unload/stow their firearms? Makes sense to me, but that's the problem with the federal gov't. It's like I tell my guys all the time, there's common sense, and there's army sense... and the two aren't exactly synonymous. It's also like a platoon sgt over here says, "You're not required to give a $H!#... but you are required to follow orders."

    Of course, Clint Smith says that. In the training industry, instructors can be held liable for what they teach. That's why you can't find a (reputable) training school ANYWHERE that teaches "keep a loaded Glock on your night stand at all times".

    What you learn from folks, such as Clint Smith, is not "The Law". There are many different levels of experience and proficiency with handling and employing firearms. That's why you have Navy Seal teams that will train in a live fire shoot house and shoot targets within feet of another operator. Would that be "Ok" in a basic handgun safety course?? Hell, no!

    I shoot a LOT. I transition from different carry methods from time to time... depending on attire, occasion, weather, etc. If my handgun has been out of my possession or out of the holster, I commonly "press check" it to make sure there's a round still chambered. I'm not OCD, at all, but I'm freakish about double checking my firearms.

    The Army has this weird idea about making us carry unloaded rifles around with us EVERYWHERE while inside the wire here in Iraq. They have clearing barrels outside of the PX, chow hall, MWR, etc. I actually inspect my chamber EVERY TIME I clear my rifle. When I'm near the clearing barrels, I'll call out complacent soldiers about properly clearing their weapons. I've only been outside the wire ONCE this pathetic tour, but I'm still freakish about clearing my rifle... even though I've only locked and loaded ONCE! (And that one time was several months ago...)
     
  11. ranger_sxt

    ranger_sxt New Member

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    If seems to me that the FPS is actually doing a good thing.

    This job seems to be in higher demand. As such, they are increasing the standards slowly to weed out those employees who are less comepetent. Between this and the more difficult qualification course, they seem to be trying to get people who are willing to spend more time and effort to keep their jobs, and weeding out the guards who just think this is a job.
     
  12. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    ranger :
    I admit I don't know what is going on all over the country. I do know of one contract where the range test is used for the ulterior motive of replacing the guards with ex-military and ex-police. It is not becuse the officials suddenly decided they need good shooters.

    FPS still hasn't forgiven the contact guards for " taking their jobs away " and continues to use any excuse to harass the guards. I've heard from reliable sources that when FPS guarded the buildings, their officers destroyed watchman's clocks by dropping them out of windows, so they did not have to make rounds, drank, used drugs etc. Illiterate FPOs could not write reports.
    FPS cost the government so much money that they found it cheaper to contract out security. Then they hired an army of FPOs to baby-sit the guards.
    That agency is considered a big waste of taxpayers' money by every guard I know.
    I once visited FPS's main base and saw a fleet of perhaps 60 police cars parked and doing nothing. As far as I know, FPS still does not do random drug testing.
    Hydrashok-
    Yes, I think guards should be permitted to take their guns home and anywhere else.
    In the military, a lot of good men have died following the orders of a drunk or an incompetent.

    The following story is true :
    In WWI, in the Argonne Forest, an American SGT. was ordered to have his men dig foxholes. He protested that the location would make them vulnerable to mortar fire, that they should dig on the other side of the hill. His protest met with, " I give the orders...".
    Several men were wounded by mortar fire before a man yelled, " SGT, do something ! ".
    The SGT said, " Follow me ", and led his men to safety. The officer who gave the original order did not interfere. If he had, the SGT later said," I'd have shot him . My gun shoots just as fast as his does. "( The SGT had a Tommy Gun ).
    Notified to report to Pershing's headquaters, the SGT expected to be sent to Leavenworth, his war over. Instead he received the Silver Star and a personal commendation from Pershing for saving the lives of his men. I've seen the commendation ( a legal-size document ) but it has since disappeared. I also saw his Silver Star and Bronze Star. The SGT lived into his 80s and loved to tell the story.
    Sometime courage and goodness win.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2009
  13. chopkick

    chopkick New Member

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    For the most part FPS is doing a great job. If there are problems with the training or qualification drills, MOVE ON! I'm sure you can find a minimum wage security gig somewhere. Geez, if you are told that these are the requirements to keep your great paying security job then DO IT! It's no big deal. You chose to work for them, they didn't go out beating the bushes looking for you.

    And regarding another post, when you stated that you personally knew of 50 guards that lost their jobs because they failed the shoot. That's B.S. No company has that many people sitting on the sidelines waiting to fill the places left vacant by the fallen. I know how the contract works! I've been doing the same job you do for 7 years. Contract calls for a company to keep 15% reserves.

    If you want to demonize FPS and their practices, you should do it where there isn't someone who knows what you're saying isn't completely true.
     
  14. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    chopkick-
    Most of the guards I referred to work on a contract that is "delegated", under the control of the agency being guarded. It is that agency that requires the guards be fired if they fail in two visits to the range. The employer of the guards has no say in it. I'm telling the truth... and you can doubt me but be careful when you accuse me of lying.
    I cannot name the contract for various reasons.

    Recently, about 30 guards went for ICE Course requalification. They were from more than one company. All but 6, I'm told, failed. One told me he contested something the FPS inspector did and the FPO threatened to arrest him if he did not be quiet. The range is not government property so the FPO had no more authority to arrest the guard than a private citizen would have.

    My experience with FPS includes being harassed at the range by an FPO who insisted in spite of all logic that my .38 dump pouches were upside down. Maybe my T-shirt that knocked 'gun control' bothered him.

    Another FPO allowed an instructor to wrongly disqualify me. I protested to the head of FPS Firearms Training and that man was rude and refused to help me. He also failed to email me information he promised.

    When I questioned my range score once, the FPO simply said, " You passed. That's all that matters, right ? "

    An FPS " Green Coat " asked me what I thought the condition of the flag in front of our building was. Since the flag was in tatters, I said I thought it was in poor condition. He then ordered me to lower the flag, straighten it, and re-fly it. My project manager protested this harassment to GSA. The guy had no authority to order me to do this. He also knew full well that the flag was flown properly and that I referred to its raggedness.

    Lately, FPOs have been ordering guards off the range, deducting points for various reasons etc. This exceeds their authority. They are only supposed to see that the shoot is conducted fairly.

    I saw an FPO get rude to a small female guard when she arrived for a test at an FPS facility. He never looked up from his copy of The Washington Post as he barked at her. This was a guy who taught orientation for new guards, telling us how to be courteous.

    Your experience with FPS may be wonderful, but don't assume you know what goes on everywhere else. Sorry to bore everybody with examples of FPS misconduct but just be glad I haven't told you everything. That would have included the range officer who heaved .38s onto a shelf, the one who yelled at my friend and accused him of damaging the .38 when it fell apart as he was firing for qualification ( FPS had some junk guns ) and a lot more.
     
  15. chopkick

    chopkick New Member

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    No contract guards are under the control of the "host" agency. They have no idea when we requalify nor do they care. They are not privy to our passing scores and should not be. It's the duty of FPS to supply competent security officers and these agencies trust them to do so.

    If you have 24 out of 30 officers fail a shoot, it sounds like more practice is needed. Geez, take some personal responsibility. Apparently there isn't much motivation in your area. FYI, the present economy sucks and good paying jobs are hard to come by.

    Also, FPS doesn't supply the firearms, the contract company does. So if they were junk, it was because the contract company was to cheap to buy decent firearms.

    If FPS is that rude, maybe it's because they are sick of baby sitting incompetent boobs and putting out unnecessary fires started by these parking lot guards.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009
  16. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    chopkick-
    Sorry, but you are wrong. FPS headquarters at the Washington Navy Yard did supply the guns for qualification at their range.
    In addition, the host agency, in this case, in fact controls the delegated contract and gives the guards two visits to the range to qualify.
    The reasons for the failures include some incredible behavior by FPS. When that many guards fail, there is something crooked going on. People are being nit-picked, having points deducted for thin excuses etc. Not to mention the guy threatened with arrest for protesting.
    " Incompetent boobs " describes FPS better than the contract guards. FPS used to take an hour to respond to calls for assistance. Their inspectors often fail to show up while guards wait in vain to shoot for qualification. Many of them are fat and out of shape as are some guards. And there is no excuse for their rudeness : example being the time I took the safety test and the FPO greeted me by wordlessly holding out his hand.
    " Oh," I said, "you need my credentials ". I handed over the credentials. Still no word from the FPO. I took the safety test and started to leave. He called out to me. I turned and he was holding out my credentials for me. I thanked him for reminding me. He replied, " I can just throw 'em in the trash if you want ".

    One time I went to take the written test and was told I needed a special form " exhibit 8A ", which my boss had failed to supply. After some pleading, I was permitted to take the test but warned to fax the form " ...by tonight or I'll shred your test. "

    Nice guys. How much evidence do you need, Chopkick ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009
  17. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    So Rent!! FPS is essentially GSA's security guards. If they are tasked with qualifying contract guards to replace FPS personnel who would normally be assigned those jobs, I can see why some may have issues with passing someone the felt to be Under Qualified!

    I've seen this before when there is contracting money but the Agency/Administration is under a hiring freeze and down sizing. None of the remaining regulars are too happy about training their replacements.

    I am not going to say you can't rant about how you feel wronged by FPS and I'm not going to argue whether they are or are not following proper procedures or defend FPS.

    I will say I think you've gotten you nickel's worth out of this thread!
     
  18. Rentacop

    Rentacop Well-Known Member

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    dunerunner-
    I'm sorry about the long-winded arguments but I felt that chopkick was entitled to some concrete examples of FPS misconduct.
    I might add that his slurs against guards are not backed up by specific examples.

    Maybe it is the Abu Graib mentality at work. FPS knows it can abuse the guards with impunity, so it does so. I'm glad I've had a chance to expose these nasty people your tax dollars pay for.
     
  19. chopkick

    chopkick New Member

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    Look, it sounds to me like all FPS has done to you is hurt your feelings. Maybe you should go to a Dr. Phil blog..

    You want examples? We have a female officer who is a Wiccan Witch. FPS wrote her up when they discovered that on her desk at a Social Security Office, she had constructed a miniature alter. Since then, she has been moved to two different posts because the host agencies don't want her there.

    Another officer was busted by the head of GSA I region 9 for eating a chicken leg in one hand and wanding visitors with the other. He also openly referred to blacks as "darkies" and Indian and Middle Eastern people as "diaper heads".

    In another less hilarious show of stupidity, one officer failed to help his partner who was physically fighting on the ground with a woman who was attempting to gain control of his firearm. His reason for failure to act; he doesn't hit women.

    You want more?
     
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