Robber shot by EVERY customer in the store

Discussion in 'Firearms in the Media' started by MisterMcCool, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

    sometimes people make very poor choices in their lives. sometimes those choices can lead to their demise. maybe put yourself in their shoes for a moment. due to circumstances and environment, upbringing people make some lousy choices. who knows, if under the same circumstances, you might have acted in the same manner as he did.

    but that is really irrelevant, simply because people make choices in their life to either do right or wrong. but, for me, it seems rather heartless and merciless to find humor or joy in the death of another person regardless of how or why it happened.

    "There but for the grace of God, go I."

    never revel in the misfortune of others, because misfortune could visit you at a later date.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  2. kfox75

    kfox75 Well-Known Member Supporter

    Did they at least ID the body, so next of kin could receive his Darwin Award for him?

    Now, before anyone decides to jump on my $#!+ for posting that, I AM that guy. i would, and often do, fight to keep from laughing at funerals, and yes, I have told members of the grieving family that, had their ___ been a bit less of a dumb @$$, he just might still be with them.

    And that is my polite and filtered version.

    that does not mean that I don't take something, like taking another's life in SD, lightly though. The A Plus Coffee incident left me shaken for a bit afterwards (And no, I don't mean seconds) because I could have, and if it had come to it, WOULD have killed the guy who was posing a threat to a very close friend.

    had it come to it, yes, I would have stabbed him in the throat, repeatedly, to protect her, and to make sure I was going to make it home that night. PERIOD!

    But, we are human beings with feelings and emotions, so, assumoing one is well balanced, there will be sadness at having to have done such an act, and not joy and elation over it. that is some serious $#!+, and not something to be taken lightly, as seems to be the manner of the "I wish a mother F#@%er would...." crowd.

    And each time we joke about such things, it does reinforce the stand of the antis that we are all, cold blooded, spiteful, ill tempered, pieces of $#!+, who want nothing more than a reason to oull that trigger, and send some innocent "15 YO boy" who did the wrong thing to the wrong person, but is "just misunderstood", or was about to "Come into his own, and follow the right path" into an early grave. And then we will all go out, suck down beers, while still carrying, and fist bump our buddies while bragging out there being one less scumbag in the world, and we gave him what he deserved.

    I can't speak for the rest of you, but I personally, do NOT want to be looked at that way, by the other side, who we can't bring to our side, but more importantly, by the fence sitters, who we could have brought to our side.

    Such behavior tends to put them on the ground on the other side of said fence.

    And now, it's time to question why I even bothered posting this, as no one will listen or even think about what I, and a few others, have posted on that one.

    As so many are so quick to judge, and place motives they think may have been why the person did X, then celebrate their death, it does raise a question. if you were at the gro=cery store, and saw a car with one adult, and 3 kids, and it's obvious they are living out of it, and everything they own is out in that car, and you saw the dad trying to shoplift a loaf of bread, would it ever cross your mind to pull out $20, walk up, place a few items in your cart, and help thjem out, instead of judging them?

    I have never had kids, and been in those shoes, but I have been in the pair of someone having to eat wish sandwiches and Ramen to survive before. having been there, if I had had kids, i can honestly say that I would have found a way to steal the whole grocery department of the local Walmart, if that's what it took to feed them.

    it never came to that with my wife and her daughter, but if it had, I would have risked getting caught poaching to keep them fed. Any "man" who says he wouldn't is either a liar, or should stop calling himself a man, right f#@%in' now.

    Or he has never had kids.

    As to not a lot of blood on the floor, I have seen cases where someone was shot, and it was a vital CNS hit, where the heart stops almost immediately. there is very little blood in that case, as when you shut a pump down, flow tends to stop fairly quick at that point.

    As long as the heart is going OTOH, blood everywhere, until it runs out, or hits a low enough level to lose pressure in the system.

    The other side of that is, gravity still works, and it is the law. Blood tends to travel south in the body, and pools at the lowest spot once the heart stops beating. that's part of why we are told to elevate an injury that has caused bleeding, as it slows the blood flow, and it keeps more blood in vital areas.

    If you heart\lung a deer, as it is running, blood is not just coming out of the body via the bullet hole, but also pooling in the bottom of the inside of the chest cavity. I have seen double lung and heart shot deer run a fair bit, and had to look at how the twigs, branches, and leaves have been disturbed to finally track them down. 4 times over the ;last 30 years, I have found blood at the site of the hit, and a drop here or there, and wondered if I missed, only to find the deer, open it, and be soaked up to my elbows in blood upon opening the chest cavity.

    So, a lack of blood, or less that what one would expect, on the outside of the body, don't always mean it was a fake, or was less than fatal.
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  3. microadventure

    microadventure Active Member

    Yeah, me too. If I gave a damn about my appalling relatives, I would think about that before I waved a gun in a victims face. Oh, wait, what if the victim is someone's child or brother?

    I grew up in a banjo pickin (deleted) white trash ghetto. Every third home had an Uncle Bob, fresh out of Marquette or Jackson, who had to do crimes because the man was holding him back, stomping him down, some BS excuse. They steal because they are too good to work for a living. A self imagined sense of superiority. None of them would acknowledge their offspring, but if Grandma won the lottery every one of the grandkids would suddenly have four dads.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2018
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  4. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    This is supposedly real, and happened in Brazil. This is according to several other YouTube videos of the same footage.
  5. formerCav

    formerCav Active Member

    good "food for thought"
    I wonder if you can apply that same feeling to a combat soldier.
    I never thought killing people was correct and nice, but I must admit, after some enemy VC/NVA killed one of my friends I felt no regret in killing them and as many as I could get!
    They eventually "hit me good" (permanently disabled) however, I "got a lot more of them then they got of me!"
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  6. kfox75

    kfox75 Well-Known Member Supporter

    To a degree Cav, it can be applied to a combat vet.

    This is something I always had the sense to not do, even when younger, and it still p!sses me off when I hear someone ask a vet the following question. "So, how many people did you kill?"

    Like that is a number that matters. Here's the one that counts, "How many men did your actions save, while you were there?"

    I asked a good friend of mine, who was an elder on the Seneca Nation where I used to live that one once. I'll get to his answer in a second, as I feel background needs toi be established before I post that. He was a WWII vet, attached to a USMC Company fighting in the Pacific. I won't go into battles he was in, but I will post one word, that will say it all for many on here.


    I had the honor of having met him, having him as a friend, becoming part of his extended family, and being one of his palbearers when he passed. I also had the honor of being his student, as the way I met him was through his grandson, when I asked about learning the language of the Seneca tribe.

    Over the next 5 years, I got to know him well, as I learned the language from him, and I had the honor of being there with his family when he left to be with the Great Spirit.

    We only talked of his time in the Corps a few times, one of which with my dad also there. We both saw him as a great man.

    He saw himself as no more than a man doing the job his country, and his nation, asked him to do.

    His answer to my question was, "More than i could ever count, but less than I could have."

    now, one thing I know for a fact, having met up with friends that have served in the Sand Box, that I have known since high school, is this. Combat changes a man in ways someone who has not been through it will never understand. I can remember two of my close friends who expressed questions as to if they could do it, even with the training, as it's one thing on paper, another once the bullets start flying.

    And another yet, once your first friend, who you have spent countless hours around since the start of that deployment, is the one hit.

    that will boil a man down to what he is inside, and bring forth the survival\protection instincts we all have, some having them stronger than others, and it simply becomes doing the job, and surviving until the next assigned task.

    And i the words of a couple of the Vietnam Vets I know, that job is to "Put that enemy SOB into his grave, before he can put you into yours."
    And yes, I did remove the mildly racist slang from that sentence.

    You did what you had to do Cav, and were just following orders given to you by a chain of command, which is also what the other guy did. you both tried to do what had to be done, and to survive.

    In cases like that, remorse is optional, to be blunt about it. It is something that has to come later, as it does in the moment, it may cost you, or worse, those around you, who are relying on you to do your job, as one of the cogs in the machine, a very steep price.

    So now I'm going to do two things. One is a statement, the other a question.

    1. Thank You For Your Service Cav.

    2. How many lives did you save while you were over there, doing the job your country asked you to do?

    Remember that everyone there had a job to do, and they were just following the orders given, and doing the best they could to follow the orders, and survive long enough to make it to doing the next indicated thing, until they could return to the World.

    Some just struggled with doing so more than others. And some still do.
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  7. Certifiable

    Certifiable Active Member Supporter

    Before I get to the bulk of my post, a little background.
    1. I served as a Combat Engineer from 2007 to 2008, when I was medically discharged.
    2. I did not serve in a combat zone. I was in a unit that was still drawing gear and equipment, preparing to deploy to Afghanistan when they found the medical issues.

    I do not know how I would react in this kind of situation.

    Some of the other soldiers in my platoon were talking once about what they'd do if X, Y, or Z happened, passing around the typical macho bravado answers. My team leader noticed I didn't open my mouth and asked me point blank how I thought I would react and I had to state, "I don't know." I'd like to think that I would immediately react in accordance with my training. I further explained that tend to be a very protective person and I think I would probably freeze for a second or two til I realize what is happening, then I would do whatever is necessary to protect my friends. That is my nature. How will I react to the consequences of my application of force? Again, I do not know. Based on the way I've responded to other emergencies in my life, I respond first, reflect later. Psychos have no feeling or regard for taking another life, or actively take joy in the destruction of others. Sane people may feel remorse for the necessity of taking another life, relief that those they care for survived and a threat has been removed, or anguish that they were the cause of potential, talent, or love that is now ended.

    When we strap on a firearm, stage it beside the bed, or otherwise prepare it for use, most of us (I sincerely hope) are not thinking, "today, if someone pops up and starts acting the fool, I'm gonna blast 'em away." Most of us are probably thinking, "I hope I don't have to use this today." I agree with Dallas and kfox that the use of a firearm is not a light matter. However, when an individual makes the decision to become a real, immediate, and deadly threat to others, that threat must be dealt with. While it is not an occurrence to be sought after, the individual that created the situation by performing that threatening act is the one primarily responsible. A shoplifter grabbing some bread, food, clothing, video game, etc. does not merit a violent response. A shoplifter grabbing weaponry or a robber who pulls a gun does. They made their choice.

    I wholeheartedly disagree with confronting an already grieving family with statements like "if he hadn't been an idiot, you'd still have him." The life is gone and all the shoulda, coulda, woulda will not bring them back or prevent it from happening in the first place. It may serve as an object lesson for others considering the same course, but such statements do no good. If the family is insisting or proclaiming that we, as responsible, law-abiding citizens, have no right to shoot their family member when he or she became a threat... have at it. Keep in mind that when confronted with their own stupidity, many such individuals will hold all the tighter to it.
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  8. formerCav

    formerCav Active Member

    I really could NOT quantify that. I know I held up the end of our perimeter for quite a while by my lonesome on the tank with the drivers compartment on fire using the 50 and 90mm.
    That was my LAST night there when an RPG got me.

    I don't know how many I "saved" on the week before.
    but you could read about the battles here.

    then on the left side click on war stories.
    I wrote a few under the name #ob S**neider
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  9. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

    And that verifies what and how?
  10. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member

    Certifiable, excellent post.

    i doubt any one really knows how we are going to react to such a situation until it happens. we can hope, guess or think of how we might react, but there is no certain outcome until it happens.

    any day i carry a pistol in public, i saw a prayer that it's not the day i have to use it. i hope and pray, i never find out what it's like to take another person's life, even some low-life POS scumbag intent on doing me, or my loved ones harm. first of all, i tend to not to go looking for trouble, or be in places where it's much more likely to occur. i tend to mind my own business. i expect others to extend that same courtesy to me. i want to be left alone. but, i also realize that sometimes trouble likes to come looking for someone to totally mess with their lives in a bad way. BTDT a few time in the past. and just because i value the sacredness of life doesn't mean that if put into a position of having to defend myself or my loved ones that it would be a hard decision for me to make in ending the life of an attacker if pushed with no other options. i would take no joy in the deed in anyways, and i'm pretty sure afterwards it will mess with my mind, but i accepted that as possibility many years ago when i took on the responsibility to carry, or have a firearm for self defense, and that o would have to learn to deal with the aftermath if it were to happen. making that decision to use up to deadly force in self defense was a very hard one for me. and i thought long and hard about it. the question that stuck with me was the one my father asked me, "Could i live with myself for not killing someone who was intent on killing me or my loved ones?" once i answered that question, i turned the corner and knew what i had to do.

    my Christian upbringing will always lead me to believe in the sacredness of all life. and even if i had no choice but to take another life in self defense, i can only hope that i retain my humanity that i find no pleasure or joy in the taking of that person's life, regardless of how bad a person they might have been, or that they would have visited ill intent upon me or my loved ones.
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  11. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    It doesn't verify a damn thing.
  12. formerCav

    formerCav Active Member

    I have much the same beliefs as you. I grew up in a Christian home and as a child, in our private school we were taught the 10 commandments (I still have them memorized).
    For many years after I had left Vietnam and the Army, I tried to deal with "thou shall not Kill" (number 6).
    I even talked to preachers about it.
    They all said something like "in war that is different and besides, the correct translation is "thou shall not commit MURDER".
    Well, that maybe so, but after a buddy gets whacked and you chase an enemy combatant, and you kill him in REVENGE, GOD knows that in your heart, you committed MURDER.
    I ran into a gulf war vet who told me much the same thing.
    While being in the hospital in 2017 for a triple bypass, a combat medic was helping me, and I was listening to the radio. (he was from the more recent Iraq war and Afghanistan). On the radio, they were talking about having your YOUNG mind back or your YOUNG body back.
    I'd take the body but would not want my 18 year old mind!
    The medic told me "I'd take back my 18 year old MIND"
    BECAUSE "I would not have seen the chit I've seen"
    Interesting take on that topic!!!
    The only thing that has "saved" me is Jesus. <-- I know that is not a PC thing to say... but THERE IT IS!!
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  13. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

    Some of us here, me included (many times), have HAD to use deadly force and I can tell you it will happen, most of the time, so fast you don't have time to 'ponder' it, especially in a civilian SD situation. And I can tell you from experience that the 'overly educated idealistic idiots' of the world will tell you that you MUST have negative felling as a result. THIS IS PURE BS!!!:mad: If what you do is for the right reasons you should not feel 'guilty' for doing it. In the Army I did what I needed to do to 'fight' the enemy, and as a cop I did what was need to protect myself and others. EVERY TIME was for the right reasons. I do not loose any sleep or have any problem with what I did. The 6. commandment is not 'Thou shall not kill' it is THOU SHALL NOT MURDER'. I have never murdered anyone!
    I did not enjoy doing it, but it was just a part of my life.
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  14. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

    You only have a problem with killing another person if you have a conscience.
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  15. MisterMcCool

    MisterMcCool Well-Known Member Supporter

    That may be true but it doesn't mean that those who do not lament killing have no conscience.
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  16. kfox75

    kfox75 Well-Known Member Supporter

    Not neccissarily the case Chain. I know a lot of folks, with a conscience, that had to do what they had to do, and can sleep well at night. My grandfather was one of them, who was a sharpshooter in the NYSP, and was one of the men on the wall at Attica.

    I will not go into details of what was done or said, but he had no issues dealing with what he had to do after the first hostage was killed by the prisoners.

    He was also the kind of person who, at least once, caught a man jack lighting deer on his farm to feed his family, and instead of running him in, gave him pointers on how to do it in a more discrete manner, that wouldn't attract LE in the area. As well as adding him to the list of contacts for road kill deer in the area.

    Such a man can not, IMHO, be labeled as having no conscience, as one who truly did not, would have arrested the guy, and let his family starve.

    Too many wish to concentrate on the act alone, as is in a way the right way to look at such things. However, the smart man also takes the why into account, as that matters more than the what ever will.

    If a good man would lay down his life to protect those he loves, what would make anyone think that he would stop at anything short of taking the life of another to do the same? Depending on the circumstances, such actions, even though killing another may be the wrong thing, if it is done for the right reason, the he has every right to rest easy at night after doing so.

    part of my struggle dealing with what I had to do was the fact that, had it come down to it, I would have died to protect her, and knowing that I would have killed him to do the same. Not because of the actions I took, or would have taken, but instead because I managed to do something I have rarely done in my lifetime.

    Finding that out about myself, I scared the $#!+ out of ME.

    I will freely admit that there was a part of me that did not want to stop once he let go of the knife, and that that side of me has only come out three times in my life. and I don't like that side of me, but, where ever i am, there it is.

    And I am afraid of that side of me.
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  17. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

    I disagree, it is a personal philosophy so there is no absolute.

    It it not unusual for people, who killed in a life or death situation, on or off the battlefield, and then looked into the face of their fallen victim, to see that face forever and to be sad about it.

    In this life, you may be forced to kill another person with legal and moral justification, but a good man will never have the incident pass from his vision. It should be very hard to kill another human being, and if there were no psychological price for doing so, it would be very easy.

    People who can kill, for any reason, and walk away with no remorse, lack a key element of being human; I define that element as conscience. There may be better a better word, but the meaning will be the same.
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  18. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

    There are those, even Christians, who will argue that the wording of the second amendment is absolute and cast in stone, but will find many reasons to waltz all around the wording of the 6th commandment, which was, in fact, cast in stone, and is taken as the holy word of the Creator from which all inalienable rights spring.

    Christians and Jews should consider the Ten Commandments to be the "real constitution" as written by the hand of God. The prophets, priests, popes and rabbis are the ones who interpret the meaning of the only "real" law. We tend to accept their interpretations when they conflict with the written law, and serves our purposes, but do not want to accept the interpretations to the Constitution, as written and interpreted by mortal men.

    I find that interesting that they can balance the two propositions.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
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  19. bobski

    bobski Well-Known Member Sponsor

    the internet, video games, and Hollywood have successfully de-sensitized the population, making death and killing commonplace.

    oddly enough, perps and thugs, (because of video games and Hollywood) think, that they wont die and the medical profession will save them.

    oh yeah...and utube makes everyone all gun and shooting experts. lol.
    my shoot and hoots de-bunked that one real quick. :>
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  20. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

    When a person is "forced" to kill another person, he or she should be required to gaze into the face of the victim and then break the news, personally to the family. It may be painful, but according to some replies, if spoken honestly, it could go something like this:

    "Greetings 'mam. I am officer X with the X police department. I responded to the report of a man brandishing a gun at the park where your 14 year old plays. I drove my car up on the grass, jumped out and killed your boy within like five seconds. It turns out, it was a toy gun. My partner and I sat around the car shooting the bull until the ambulance and my supervisors arrived. I am not sure if he was dead at the time, but I did not attempt to save him. It was a clean shooting so it didn't matter. The investigation will consider the shooting justified, I will not have any remorse over your son's death. Have a nice day."

    Have I got that right, Jim?